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A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7580274" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Sorry, this is incoherent: it can't be the case <em>both</em> that something is automatically known to the PC, and that it is known to the player but not the PC. So I don't know what you're trying to say here.</p><p></p><p>The point that I, [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] and others are making is that <em>there is no reaosn to doubt that it is character knowledge</em>. If the player imputes the knowledge to the character, then the player is using character knowledge.</p><p></p><p> [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] is asserting that the rules of the game <em>forbid</em> the player from imputing such knowledge to a character, while asserting at the same time that there is no problem with imputing to the character knowledge of how to search for traps, look for secret doors, etc. My claim, in response, is that this distinction is arbitrary and without foundation except as a local table convention.</p><p></p><p>Knowledge checks don't come into it. In the AD&D, B/X other D&D rules, a player doesn't need to make a knowledge check in order to declare that his/her PC searches for secret doors, or that s/he is tapping the floor looking for pressure plates.</p><p></p><p>My point is that it is no more "metagaming" to declare that my PC had an uncle that taught her about trolls, than to take it for granted that my PC has had some experience or training that means s/he knows about the possibility of moving masonry, presssure plates, and the like. (And when I say "my point", really I mean [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] and [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s point.)</p><p></p><p>I don't think you're really engaging with what I'm saying about the monster with the puzzle immunity/vulnerability.</p><p></p><p>Puzzles aren't interesting because the PCs solve them. I mean, I could sit back and have the GM regale me with a story about how my PC solves such-and-such a puzzle, but that wouldn't make for good RPGing. Puzzles are interesting <em>because people at the table engage with them</em>.</p><p></p><p>What you're saying, in the quote just above, is that the challenge of the puzzle is <em>replaced</em> with a challenge of playing your PC subobtipmally until the GM lets you "flip the switch". What I'm saying is that that is insipid roleplaying that alienates the player from the character. Instead of inhabiting my character and playing him/her to the hilt, I'm playing a game of "persuade the GM".</p><p></p><p>But, to repeat, I could experience that story having the GM just narrate it to me. But RPGing is meant to be more than that. At the least, it's meant to be involve <em>the players</em> figuring things out.</p><p></p><p>Essential to what? And what "evils"?</p><p></p><p>The basic "pitch" for roleplaying is <em>you can be a hero trying to change, maybe save, the world</em>. How does it get so changed to become <em>pretend to be a hero who doesn't know yet how to change, or save, the world</em>?</p><p></p><p>When [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] talks about "discovery", he is not talking about <em>imaging</em> one's PC learning something that one already knows. He's talking about a real thing that actually happens at the table: the participants in the game learning new things about the shared fiction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7580274, member: 42582"] Sorry, this is incoherent: it can't be the case [I]both[/I] that something is automatically known to the PC, and that it is known to the player but not the PC. So I don't know what you're trying to say here. The point that I, [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] and others are making is that [I]there is no reaosn to doubt that it is character knowledge[/I]. If the player imputes the knowledge to the character, then the player is using character knowledge. [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] is asserting that the rules of the game [I]forbid[/I] the player from imputing such knowledge to a character, while asserting at the same time that there is no problem with imputing to the character knowledge of how to search for traps, look for secret doors, etc. My claim, in response, is that this distinction is arbitrary and without foundation except as a local table convention. Knowledge checks don't come into it. In the AD&D, B/X other D&D rules, a player doesn't need to make a knowledge check in order to declare that his/her PC searches for secret doors, or that s/he is tapping the floor looking for pressure plates. My point is that it is no more "metagaming" to declare that my PC had an uncle that taught her about trolls, than to take it for granted that my PC has had some experience or training that means s/he knows about the possibility of moving masonry, presssure plates, and the like. (And when I say "my point", really I mean [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] and [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION]'s point.) I don't think you're really engaging with what I'm saying about the monster with the puzzle immunity/vulnerability. Puzzles aren't interesting because the PCs solve them. I mean, I could sit back and have the GM regale me with a story about how my PC solves such-and-such a puzzle, but that wouldn't make for good RPGing. Puzzles are interesting [I]because people at the table engage with them[/I]. What you're saying, in the quote just above, is that the challenge of the puzzle is [I]replaced[/I] with a challenge of playing your PC subobtipmally until the GM lets you "flip the switch". What I'm saying is that that is insipid roleplaying that alienates the player from the character. Instead of inhabiting my character and playing him/her to the hilt, I'm playing a game of "persuade the GM". But, to repeat, I could experience that story having the GM just narrate it to me. But RPGing is meant to be more than that. At the least, it's meant to be involve [I]the players[/I] figuring things out. Essential to what? And what "evils"? The basic "pitch" for roleplaying is [I]you can be a hero trying to change, maybe save, the world[/I]. How does it get so changed to become [I]pretend to be a hero who doesn't know yet how to change, or save, the world[/I]? When [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] talks about "discovery", he is not talking about [I]imaging[/i] one's PC learning something that one already knows. He's talking about a real thing that actually happens at the table: the participants in the game learning new things about the shared fiction. [/QUOTE]
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