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A Homebrew Cleric Cantrip discussion
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<blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 8719182" data-attributes="member: 59848"><p>Regarding the accuracy, I figure we can compare it to Bless, a 1st level spell. That spell allows 3 people to gain +1d4 on attack rolls and saving throws and has concentration. So limiting it to a single attack for a single target seems in line with what a cantrip can do. Perhaps an even more apt comparison is True Strike, though that cantrip is notorious for how underpowered it is considered except in the most extreme edge cases. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 to the roll, which is less than the average of 2.5 granted by a d4. But then, this cantrip has an attack baked into the action, while True Strike requires an additional action to deal the damage. In that regard, just assuming the bonus to attack roll, this spell is likely on par with True Strike. But ideally we'd want to add in something to make it slightly more powerful to raise it to the level of a typical attack cantrip.</p><p></p><p>The mechanic of the damage being unable to be reduced is interesting to me, but by my estimate this is a small ribbon ability at best. Most creatures aren't resistant to weapon damage, most of those that are can have that be overcome by a magical weapon, and even fewer creatures are completely immune to bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing. By the time a typical player encounters such a creature, they are likely to have other ways to avoid these resistances or immunities. If nothing else, a cleric has radiant damage cantrips that they can fall back on. Since the cantrip is limited to melee attacks, those radiant damage attacks are still relevant to provide ranged options, making any typical damage resistances or immunities moot.</p><p></p><p>Where shenanigans may occur is if the caster uses a magic weapon that deals additional bonus damage and multiple damage types. However, I'm not as concerned with that because magic items are the purview of the DM, and a DM should understand the potential scenarios they are unleashing upon their own game by granting such magic items. Additionally, since the cantrip specifies that the damage cannot be reduced, I don't see things like Temp HP or spells like Shield causing arguments. Per RAW, the relationship between resistance, immunity, temporary hit points, hit points, and damage is well established. Abilities like the Shield spell still function normally, because they deal with the attack side of things and have nothing to do with the damage of the attack.</p><p></p><p>So if bypassing resistance/immunity for the cantrip's attack is a ribbon ability that doesn't truly affect the power of the cantrip, how can it be raised while remaining thematically consistent and balanced compared to other cantrips? You could add additional damage, but that seems like it would be too powerful and not be consistent with the spell. Other cantrips such as Vicious Mockery may impose advantage or disadvantage to a particular d20 roll before the end/start of the target's/caster's next turn, and cantrips like Mind Sliver can impose a bonus or penalty of 1d4 to a particular kind of d20 roll before the end/start of the target's/caster's next turn.</p><p></p><p>I don't think any official cantrip currently grants a bonus to the next attack roll made against the target before the start of the caster's next turn. This is similar to the rider for Guiding Bolt, so it is within the cleric's wheelhouse. Granting advantage seems weird, since it is actually would be a better bonus than what the original caster would receive (average of +5 for advantage versus +2.5 for the d4). So maybe keeping it at a d4 bonus to the next attack is more appropriate and in line with Bless, which this cantrip most resembles.</p><p></p><p>I know [USER=6801228]@Chaosmancer[/USER] wasn't interested in the Fiend/Undead angle, but if we think about a cleric trying to exorcise evil, it could make sense to impose disadvantage on the target's next saving throw before the start of the caster's next turn (a bit more powerful than Mind Sliver but perhaps balanced by Mind Sliver being ranged vs Blessed Blade being melee). Alternatively, it could be protective, in granting advantage to one creature on their next saving throw against the target creature's abilities before the end of the target's next turn. That's a bit unwieldy compared to the natural language preference of 5e, but still works within the scope of what 5e offers.</p><p></p><p>I think any of those could be reasonable options that are general enough to be effective while also providing a unique spin on existing cantrip mechanics.</p><p></p><p>I don't know how these thing affect DPR and I'm not mathematically inclined enough to do those calculations as some members of the community that I've seen. So I'd be interested how the cantrip compares not just to other cantrips, but to similar attack options available to other classes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hawk Diesel, post: 8719182, member: 59848"] Regarding the accuracy, I figure we can compare it to Bless, a 1st level spell. That spell allows 3 people to gain +1d4 on attack rolls and saving throws and has concentration. So limiting it to a single attack for a single target seems in line with what a cantrip can do. Perhaps an even more apt comparison is True Strike, though that cantrip is notorious for how underpowered it is considered except in the most extreme edge cases. Advantage is roughly equivalent to a +5 to the roll, which is less than the average of 2.5 granted by a d4. But then, this cantrip has an attack baked into the action, while True Strike requires an additional action to deal the damage. In that regard, just assuming the bonus to attack roll, this spell is likely on par with True Strike. But ideally we'd want to add in something to make it slightly more powerful to raise it to the level of a typical attack cantrip. The mechanic of the damage being unable to be reduced is interesting to me, but by my estimate this is a small ribbon ability at best. Most creatures aren't resistant to weapon damage, most of those that are can have that be overcome by a magical weapon, and even fewer creatures are completely immune to bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing. By the time a typical player encounters such a creature, they are likely to have other ways to avoid these resistances or immunities. If nothing else, a cleric has radiant damage cantrips that they can fall back on. Since the cantrip is limited to melee attacks, those radiant damage attacks are still relevant to provide ranged options, making any typical damage resistances or immunities moot. Where shenanigans may occur is if the caster uses a magic weapon that deals additional bonus damage and multiple damage types. However, I'm not as concerned with that because magic items are the purview of the DM, and a DM should understand the potential scenarios they are unleashing upon their own game by granting such magic items. Additionally, since the cantrip specifies that the damage cannot be reduced, I don't see things like Temp HP or spells like Shield causing arguments. Per RAW, the relationship between resistance, immunity, temporary hit points, hit points, and damage is well established. Abilities like the Shield spell still function normally, because they deal with the attack side of things and have nothing to do with the damage of the attack. So if bypassing resistance/immunity for the cantrip's attack is a ribbon ability that doesn't truly affect the power of the cantrip, how can it be raised while remaining thematically consistent and balanced compared to other cantrips? You could add additional damage, but that seems like it would be too powerful and not be consistent with the spell. Other cantrips such as Vicious Mockery may impose advantage or disadvantage to a particular d20 roll before the end/start of the target's/caster's next turn, and cantrips like Mind Sliver can impose a bonus or penalty of 1d4 to a particular kind of d20 roll before the end/start of the target's/caster's next turn. I don't think any official cantrip currently grants a bonus to the next attack roll made against the target before the start of the caster's next turn. This is similar to the rider for Guiding Bolt, so it is within the cleric's wheelhouse. Granting advantage seems weird, since it is actually would be a better bonus than what the original caster would receive (average of +5 for advantage versus +2.5 for the d4). So maybe keeping it at a d4 bonus to the next attack is more appropriate and in line with Bless, which this cantrip most resembles. I know [USER=6801228]@Chaosmancer[/USER] wasn't interested in the Fiend/Undead angle, but if we think about a cleric trying to exorcise evil, it could make sense to impose disadvantage on the target's next saving throw before the start of the caster's next turn (a bit more powerful than Mind Sliver but perhaps balanced by Mind Sliver being ranged vs Blessed Blade being melee). Alternatively, it could be protective, in granting advantage to one creature on their next saving throw against the target creature's abilities before the end of the target's next turn. That's a bit unwieldy compared to the natural language preference of 5e, but still works within the scope of what 5e offers. I think any of those could be reasonable options that are general enough to be effective while also providing a unique spin on existing cantrip mechanics. I don't know how these thing affect DPR and I'm not mathematically inclined enough to do those calculations as some members of the community that I've seen. So I'd be interested how the cantrip compares not just to other cantrips, but to similar attack options available to other classes. [/QUOTE]
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