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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9246479" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>So, my BitD character Okazaki Takeo is a narrative? He starts play as a Cutter in a crew of Assassins. He claims to be from an island called 'Shimayama' (not a place described in any of the setting material) which has been destroyed AFA he knows. He comes with a pair of fine weapons (Cutter benefit) and a vice of serving an 'Oni' which inhabits his sword. He's got an enemy which is a sawbones who's daughter he got a bit too close with (they were war buddies before that, as he's a veteran of a War, part of the game's backstory). </p><p></p><p>That's it, aside from assignment of points to attributes and such. Sorry, you may call that a 'narrative', but I don't! He's got POTENTIAL, and a lot of that was actualized in play. He goes from being a walking cliche, basically, to whatever he comes out as during our almost year of play. Those background elements certainly figure in the stuff that [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] throws at him, and I, at the player authorial level, make decisions in accordance with it as well. But the raw character? I am entirely sure you cannot even start to guess even the outlines of the narrative that arises.</p><p></p><p>Well, sure! I put that on D&D not being a suitable game for Narrativist play! In an ACTUALLY Narrativist game, lets call it 'Dungeon World' I can make a halfling thief, and an interesting story can arise as the character is tested in various ways in terms of his character traits, not just in terms of the player's ability to say when to look for traps, etc. I mean, DW is MEANT to evoke a narrative of heroic adventure and derring do of a sort that is familiar to trad RPG players, so the leap here is not HUGE, but it is very definitely a leap.</p><p></p><p>Now, take THE SAME RULES, you have Stonetop, with nothing but different playbooks and a bunch of specialized custom environmental rules (which are literally drawn from the last chapter or two of DW). This game sports a MUCH deeper and more thorough narrative trajectory as a rule due to a more interesting theme which directly engages with core elements of a character's nature, not just "how do I get some gold."</p><p></p><p>No, you are suggesting possibilities, and more importantly giving the GM things to latch onto in order to put pressure on your character so that actual story can emerge. Stories require conflict, remember? I mean, we learned this in, like, 8th Grade English, Man vs Man, Man vs Himself, Man vs Nature, etc.</p><p></p><p>Well, first of all, we DID figure it out, or you'd still be playing in c 1985 era RPGs! Maybe it all seems trivial to you and you can ignore all the points we had to hash out over years of play, but none of this was at all obvious at the start.</p><p></p><p>I have never said one game or type of game is 'compelling' and another isn't. I think what is compelling to one person is different from what is compelling to another. All I ever claimed is that different games are fundamentally different in certain ways. I am certainly NOT going to give up that claim, and I am happy to state that I find some more compelling, yes.</p><p></p><p>I don't think you have either, certainly not in this thread. I've stated what sorts of play I am after, plenty of times. I bet you there are 50 posters here, easily that could give at least some sort of account of it. As I've said to [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] I think it is super beneficial to discuss actual play and dissect it and look at the systems and techniques which produce it. AFAIK almost all advances in the state of RPG art happened that way.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9246479, member: 82106"] So, my BitD character Okazaki Takeo is a narrative? He starts play as a Cutter in a crew of Assassins. He claims to be from an island called 'Shimayama' (not a place described in any of the setting material) which has been destroyed AFA he knows. He comes with a pair of fine weapons (Cutter benefit) and a vice of serving an 'Oni' which inhabits his sword. He's got an enemy which is a sawbones who's daughter he got a bit too close with (they were war buddies before that, as he's a veteran of a War, part of the game's backstory). That's it, aside from assignment of points to attributes and such. Sorry, you may call that a 'narrative', but I don't! He's got POTENTIAL, and a lot of that was actualized in play. He goes from being a walking cliche, basically, to whatever he comes out as during our almost year of play. Those background elements certainly figure in the stuff that [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] throws at him, and I, at the player authorial level, make decisions in accordance with it as well. But the raw character? I am entirely sure you cannot even start to guess even the outlines of the narrative that arises. Well, sure! I put that on D&D not being a suitable game for Narrativist play! In an ACTUALLY Narrativist game, lets call it 'Dungeon World' I can make a halfling thief, and an interesting story can arise as the character is tested in various ways in terms of his character traits, not just in terms of the player's ability to say when to look for traps, etc. I mean, DW is MEANT to evoke a narrative of heroic adventure and derring do of a sort that is familiar to trad RPG players, so the leap here is not HUGE, but it is very definitely a leap. Now, take THE SAME RULES, you have Stonetop, with nothing but different playbooks and a bunch of specialized custom environmental rules (which are literally drawn from the last chapter or two of DW). This game sports a MUCH deeper and more thorough narrative trajectory as a rule due to a more interesting theme which directly engages with core elements of a character's nature, not just "how do I get some gold." No, you are suggesting possibilities, and more importantly giving the GM things to latch onto in order to put pressure on your character so that actual story can emerge. Stories require conflict, remember? I mean, we learned this in, like, 8th Grade English, Man vs Man, Man vs Himself, Man vs Nature, etc. Well, first of all, we DID figure it out, or you'd still be playing in c 1985 era RPGs! Maybe it all seems trivial to you and you can ignore all the points we had to hash out over years of play, but none of this was at all obvious at the start. I have never said one game or type of game is 'compelling' and another isn't. I think what is compelling to one person is different from what is compelling to another. All I ever claimed is that different games are fundamentally different in certain ways. I am certainly NOT going to give up that claim, and I am happy to state that I find some more compelling, yes. I don't think you have either, certainly not in this thread. I've stated what sorts of play I am after, plenty of times. I bet you there are 50 posters here, easily that could give at least some sort of account of it. As I've said to [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] I think it is super beneficial to discuss actual play and dissect it and look at the systems and techniques which produce it. AFAIK almost all advances in the state of RPG art happened that way. [/QUOTE]
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