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A neotrad TTRPG design manifesto
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9246630" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>I feel sure I wrote up-thread that pre-lusory goals would be asymmetrical. Either way, I agree with you that it's asymmetrical.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't exempt combat from what game play may really consist of.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Player contributions of that sort can hardly be counted as <em>ludically</em>-crux.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I found a case in point in this <a href="https://open.spotify.com/episode/5RaoYr3A1E7k3ZkDkOXydu?si=9c870f6f8e8d42d3" target="_blank">RQ actual play</a> from about 105 minutes in, and running for about an hour. GM characterises the sequence up front as less like normal play, and launches a protracted CYOA. GM places one player-character within the Godtime in the role of Ernalda as he relates how Orlanth slew Yelm. The other player-characters are at the table, but take no part in this.</p><p></p><p>This is the sort of delivery of narrative I believe RE was advocating against. I'm advocating against it, too. I say that even if one gains an appreciation of subject from say, reading a history book - even one that amounts to a CYOA! - that is falling short of the ludic ideal. In order to play game <em>as </em>game, one ought to settle what is ludically-crux <em>through play</em>. The characteristic design move of neotrad is to incorporate techniques discovered to drive that.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that PtFO isn't apt here. Here my sense is we hit a definitional argument that needs to be resolved. To my reading, you begin by including in the ambit of play things that I do not characterise as "gameful". You go on to assess that those things are not gameful. I cannot help but agree. I can illustrate by drawing this line</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">playing-game-as-<em>game </em>| doing-something-playfully</p><p></p><p>I rely here on a longstanding distinction between games and play, the former being a subset of the latter. As we sit down to play, within the span of our session we do all kinds of things. Some are "playing-a-game-as-game", some are "doing-something-playful", some are work to support and drive all that, and some are no doubt digression. My manifesto takes on the job of elevating the left-hand side by advising designers what to foremost take into consideration to make space for it. What should they push to the left-hand side? Whatever they intend to be ludically-crux. Incorporation of the innovative mechanics referred to is assumed to put in place or at the very least illuminate techniques for achieving that. RE laid down a clear statement of something he thinks should be ludically-crux.</p><p></p><p>Thus, I define out of scope criticism of anything that is not-playing-game-as-<em>game</em>. It's not that I disagree with that criticism... indeed, I am ardently motivated by it. What you describe occurs within the ambit of play. The techniques of storygames push the story element where it occurs within the ambit of play to or toward the left-hand side. One could resist the definition I'm using (maybe you do?) or one could say that the innovations referred to lose their purpose when incorporated into texts that make something other than dramatic-protagonism ludically-crux; which seems more promising, but could amount to saying that "neotrad" is a chimera. Note that I resist a hard-conflation of neotrad with "OC" because I observe play of games explicitly characterised as neotrad (fitting the bill) that does not strike me as OC-ish. (And for that matter, OC-ish play of games that don't fit the bill for "neotrad".)</p><p></p><p>You might also notice that my suggestion that GM ought to be counted a player rather matters here. Say they are not? Then they cannot be included in PtFO as they are <em>not playing</em>. They are doing something else - judging, serving as lusory-means including <em>inter-alia</em> managing adversaries and adversities, managing mysteries if that is part of play, actively disclosing that which is not focal, fitting imagined actions to game rules. Thus if your contention were to be that there must be some single thing that all the game participants are finding out, I feel you need to say that in some sense GM is playing.</p><p></p><p>I don't know why one would then hesitate to call GM a player, but we've agreed not to get hung up on semantics. And besides that, I feel like with GM we're dealing with some new creature entirely. Not referee, in the way we've learned from sports. I have considered analogies with judges, who we expect to interpret law and sometimes write it, but not to be immune to law themselves. But a judge of a game wouldn't be expected to join the game: that seems to invoke an obvious conflict of interest. On the other hand, a player of a game is not expected to be a judge of that game, for the same reason.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So this is not "neotrad" by anything I have offered as a description. I diagnose it as an error: mixing up player-contributes-colour with player-plays-game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9246630, member: 71699"] I feel sure I wrote up-thread that pre-lusory goals would be asymmetrical. Either way, I agree with you that it's asymmetrical. I don't exempt combat from what game play may really consist of. Player contributions of that sort can hardly be counted as [I]ludically[/I]-crux. I found a case in point in this [URL='https://open.spotify.com/episode/5RaoYr3A1E7k3ZkDkOXydu?si=9c870f6f8e8d42d3']RQ actual play[/URL] from about 105 minutes in, and running for about an hour. GM characterises the sequence up front as less like normal play, and launches a protracted CYOA. GM places one player-character within the Godtime in the role of Ernalda as he relates how Orlanth slew Yelm. The other player-characters are at the table, but take no part in this. This is the sort of delivery of narrative I believe RE was advocating against. I'm advocating against it, too. I say that even if one gains an appreciation of subject from say, reading a history book - even one that amounts to a CYOA! - that is falling short of the ludic ideal. In order to play game [I]as [/I]game, one ought to settle what is ludically-crux [I]through play[/I]. The characteristic design move of neotrad is to incorporate techniques discovered to drive that. I agree that PtFO isn't apt here. Here my sense is we hit a definitional argument that needs to be resolved. To my reading, you begin by including in the ambit of play things that I do not characterise as "gameful". You go on to assess that those things are not gameful. I cannot help but agree. I can illustrate by drawing this line [INDENT]playing-game-as-[I]game [/I]| doing-something-playfully[/INDENT] I rely here on a longstanding distinction between games and play, the former being a subset of the latter. As we sit down to play, within the span of our session we do all kinds of things. Some are "playing-a-game-as-game", some are "doing-something-playful", some are work to support and drive all that, and some are no doubt digression. My manifesto takes on the job of elevating the left-hand side by advising designers what to foremost take into consideration to make space for it. What should they push to the left-hand side? Whatever they intend to be ludically-crux. Incorporation of the innovative mechanics referred to is assumed to put in place or at the very least illuminate techniques for achieving that. RE laid down a clear statement of something he thinks should be ludically-crux. Thus, I define out of scope criticism of anything that is not-playing-game-as-[I]game[/I]. It's not that I disagree with that criticism... indeed, I am ardently motivated by it. What you describe occurs within the ambit of play. The techniques of storygames push the story element where it occurs within the ambit of play to or toward the left-hand side. One could resist the definition I'm using (maybe you do?) or one could say that the innovations referred to lose their purpose when incorporated into texts that make something other than dramatic-protagonism ludically-crux; which seems more promising, but could amount to saying that "neotrad" is a chimera. Note that I resist a hard-conflation of neotrad with "OC" because I observe play of games explicitly characterised as neotrad (fitting the bill) that does not strike me as OC-ish. (And for that matter, OC-ish play of games that don't fit the bill for "neotrad".) You might also notice that my suggestion that GM ought to be counted a player rather matters here. Say they are not? Then they cannot be included in PtFO as they are [I]not playing[/I]. They are doing something else - judging, serving as lusory-means including [I]inter-alia[/I] managing adversaries and adversities, managing mysteries if that is part of play, actively disclosing that which is not focal, fitting imagined actions to game rules. Thus if your contention were to be that there must be some single thing that all the game participants are finding out, I feel you need to say that in some sense GM is playing. I don't know why one would then hesitate to call GM a player, but we've agreed not to get hung up on semantics. And besides that, I feel like with GM we're dealing with some new creature entirely. Not referee, in the way we've learned from sports. I have considered analogies with judges, who we expect to interpret law and sometimes write it, but not to be immune to law themselves. But a judge of a game wouldn't be expected to join the game: that seems to invoke an obvious conflict of interest. On the other hand, a player of a game is not expected to be a judge of that game, for the same reason. So this is not "neotrad" by anything I have offered as a description. I diagnose it as an error: mixing up player-contributes-colour with player-plays-game. [/QUOTE]
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