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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9247031" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I utterly fail to understand your definition of narrative. That's like calling the appendices of LotR where Tolkien lists out all the names of all the kings and lists of which things they did, and which bad guys showed up during their time, etc. That's NOT A NARRATIVE, nor is a map, nor a key, a narrative. I mean, sure, we can both probably agree there are some fragments of narratives (examples, maybe a few plot hooks) embedded in the book somewhere, but it is highly inaccurate to call it '200+ pages of designed narrative'. I think you are confusing FICTION and NARRATIVE, and in the case of Stonetop (much like other similar milieu, even many employed in Trad play) the fiction depicted is very general and contains VERY LITTLE story of any sort at all. We learn the physical layout of Stonetop and its surroundings, and something about the people who live there and how they live. That's basically it! That IS NOT NARRATIVE.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>TBH I think that the 'six styles' are exactly that, styles of play! Now, I also happen to believe that they are associated with certain traits in game design, as in certain of those make a game effective in use for a certain style of play. I think your diagnosis of neo-trad is fine in terms of "this is a typical characteristic way to design a game for this use case" but I think it is quite possible to utilize different game texts in different ways. This comports with the ideas of [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] for example (probably largely echoing RE here). </p><p></p><p>I think neo-trad play does require some sort of plotting. I'm not sure that has to be 'meta-plot' and I've seen various uses of 'meta' in relation to plot over the years. Essentially neo-trad play, showcasing the PCs as themselves, requires something to happen in order for their characteristics to be so showcased. Superman must exercise his limitless strength, speed, etc. He may also have to exercise his heroic traits, selflessness, humility, mercy, etc. and again that REQUIRES that there be some sort of action taking place. Now, I might possibly differ on the details of what that has to be with other posters, I'm not sure. Like, it seems to me that a Narrativist 'plot free' game could showcase Superman. The difference between that and neo-trad is that in the true Narrativist version the system itself, the process of play, will throw up things like "you must allow Lois Lane to die in order to save the Earth." This is NOT going to be allowed in neo-trad! (not unless the player wants it to happen) That might be accomplished via some form of meta-plot, where things are brought to the proper state by a kind of deus-ex-machina or something like that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9247031, member: 82106"] I utterly fail to understand your definition of narrative. That's like calling the appendices of LotR where Tolkien lists out all the names of all the kings and lists of which things they did, and which bad guys showed up during their time, etc. That's NOT A NARRATIVE, nor is a map, nor a key, a narrative. I mean, sure, we can both probably agree there are some fragments of narratives (examples, maybe a few plot hooks) embedded in the book somewhere, but it is highly inaccurate to call it '200+ pages of designed narrative'. I think you are confusing FICTION and NARRATIVE, and in the case of Stonetop (much like other similar milieu, even many employed in Trad play) the fiction depicted is very general and contains VERY LITTLE story of any sort at all. We learn the physical layout of Stonetop and its surroundings, and something about the people who live there and how they live. That's basically it! That IS NOT NARRATIVE. TBH I think that the 'six styles' are exactly that, styles of play! Now, I also happen to believe that they are associated with certain traits in game design, as in certain of those make a game effective in use for a certain style of play. I think your diagnosis of neo-trad is fine in terms of "this is a typical characteristic way to design a game for this use case" but I think it is quite possible to utilize different game texts in different ways. This comports with the ideas of [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] for example (probably largely echoing RE here). I think neo-trad play does require some sort of plotting. I'm not sure that has to be 'meta-plot' and I've seen various uses of 'meta' in relation to plot over the years. Essentially neo-trad play, showcasing the PCs as themselves, requires something to happen in order for their characteristics to be so showcased. Superman must exercise his limitless strength, speed, etc. He may also have to exercise his heroic traits, selflessness, humility, mercy, etc. and again that REQUIRES that there be some sort of action taking place. Now, I might possibly differ on the details of what that has to be with other posters, I'm not sure. Like, it seems to me that a Narrativist 'plot free' game could showcase Superman. The difference between that and neo-trad is that in the true Narrativist version the system itself, the process of play, will throw up things like "you must allow Lois Lane to die in order to save the Earth." This is NOT going to be allowed in neo-trad! (not unless the player wants it to happen) That might be accomplished via some form of meta-plot, where things are brought to the proper state by a kind of deus-ex-machina or something like that. [/QUOTE]
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