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<blockquote data-quote="Gradine" data-source="post: 7191930" data-attributes="member: 57112"><p>There is a difference between a system being better suited for one particular playstyle over another and that system being responsible for amplifying a divide between playstyles among the community. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence being presented here to suggest that optimization was a thing from the beginnings of D&D, and while online communities weren't as much of a thing before 3.X, I really feel like it was that system, which was built to appeal to both types of playstyles, that you really began to see that big shift, where the optimizers really began to run with their mathematical models and tier lists and class guides. </p><p></p><p>If anything, I feel like 4e <em>diminished</em> that particular conversation because its design was so heavily focused towards combat and balance that the non-optimizers (and quite a few optimizers) just avoided sailing that ship altogether, and either stayed with 3.5 or moved to Pathfinder. Of course, that split only added more fuel to the fire for the Edition War(tm), which mostly consisted of people treating their preferred playstyle/gameplay aesthetics as objective fact in order to trash this or that edition. But we're not really talking about edition warring here; we're talking about the seeming domination of optimizer style/opinion/thought in online conversations regarding tabletop RPGs (and D&D specifically), and that's something that existed long before 4e was a gleam in anyone's eye, and it's something that still exists in communities that wouldn't touch 4e with a 10 foot pole.</p><p></p><p>This conversation has nothing to do with the edition war, because it exists, and has existed, in every edition to varying degrees. Even 4e, even if that conversation tended to center more around complaining about the relative dearth of non-combat character options.</p><p></p><p>Of course, we talk about optimizer/roleplayer as if it's a binary dichotomy but it's really not; it's not even a spectrum with the two on opposite ends; they're two separate spectrums, and while the loudest voices often tend towards the extremes of one or both, the vast majority of players are going to fall someone in the middle on both, with maybe some slight leanings one way or another (do you take two cream one sugar, or one cream two sugar?).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gradine, post: 7191930, member: 57112"] There is a difference between a system being better suited for one particular playstyle over another and that system being responsible for amplifying a divide between playstyles among the community. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence being presented here to suggest that optimization was a thing from the beginnings of D&D, and while online communities weren't as much of a thing before 3.X, I really feel like it was that system, which was built to appeal to both types of playstyles, that you really began to see that big shift, where the optimizers really began to run with their mathematical models and tier lists and class guides. If anything, I feel like 4e [I]diminished[/I] that particular conversation because its design was so heavily focused towards combat and balance that the non-optimizers (and quite a few optimizers) just avoided sailing that ship altogether, and either stayed with 3.5 or moved to Pathfinder. Of course, that split only added more fuel to the fire for the Edition War(tm), which mostly consisted of people treating their preferred playstyle/gameplay aesthetics as objective fact in order to trash this or that edition. But we're not really talking about edition warring here; we're talking about the seeming domination of optimizer style/opinion/thought in online conversations regarding tabletop RPGs (and D&D specifically), and that's something that existed long before 4e was a gleam in anyone's eye, and it's something that still exists in communities that wouldn't touch 4e with a 10 foot pole. This conversation has nothing to do with the edition war, because it exists, and has existed, in every edition to varying degrees. Even 4e, even if that conversation tended to center more around complaining about the relative dearth of non-combat character options. Of course, we talk about optimizer/roleplayer as if it's a binary dichotomy but it's really not; it's not even a spectrum with the two on opposite ends; they're two separate spectrums, and while the loudest voices often tend towards the extremes of one or both, the vast majority of players are going to fall someone in the middle on both, with maybe some slight leanings one way or another (do you take two cream one sugar, or one cream two sugar?). [/QUOTE]
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