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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7194000" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Pass. This place uses up enough of my patience. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> Nod. But the reason for the game to favor one side - and for players to play that side anyway - is that said side lost, and it's 'simulating' that (on some level, I suppose). </p><p></p><p> Are there a lot of such with profound disadvantages? In chess for instance, white has a slight advantage, typically, for fairness, who plays white is random, a player who feels he's better than his opponent might offer to play white or even spot pieces, as a handicap. </p><p></p><p>I don't recall, ATM, if it was this thread, because there are several threads getting into this kind of navel-gazing at any time, but someone brought up playing an inferior class in 3.5, as an optimization exercise, and, yeah, that's valid, I've done it. Not to play an inferior PC, but for the fun of bringing an inferior class up into the same league as the rest of a less-powergamey part. </p><p></p><p> In boardgaming or wargaming, I suppose that'd make sense. 'Winning' an RPG can be more subtle than that. (It can also be pretty unsubtle, as in PvP, for instance, or the win-the-game-at-chargen attitude towards optimization, though I have to consider that kinda fringe, since it doesn't necessarily involve actually playing the game.) Some folks will say that the reward for 'winning an RPG' is continuing to play (ie, your character didn't die or otherwise become unable to continue - like getting extra lives in a video game), others will insist that there is no 'winning' at all, because it's a cooperative effort, there's collective success/failure, and individual contribution to that.</p><p></p><p> In part, it was WotC taking over the franchise, and 3.x design being influenced by that 'rewards for mastery' aspect of M:tG play. Monty Cook came right out and said that.</p><p></p><p> And, he noted that it'd already been there, all along, too. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>In 4e & 5e, they've designed some of it away, though. 4e with greater designed-in balance and more frequent errata to maintain it, 5e with greater reliance on DM judgement and simply far less material to 'master.'</p><p></p><p> That may have something to do with the shift you've noticed. The change you see in the world comes from a change in your own perspective.</p><p></p><p> Yes. It's very amenable to long, acrimonious conversations. </p><p></p><p> Oh, you'd be surprised. 'Realism' was a debate back in the day, and you'd've thought that the realism side lost that debate, but they regrouped in the early oughts as "simulationist" (as opposed to 'narrativist' or 'gamist') and there's a strong streak of that in the community, especially when it comes to tearing down something an individual doesn't like that happens to be solid, mechanically ("ARGH! too Gamist!").</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7194000, member: 996"] Pass. This place uses up enough of my patience. ;) Nod. But the reason for the game to favor one side - and for players to play that side anyway - is that said side lost, and it's 'simulating' that (on some level, I suppose). Are there a lot of such with profound disadvantages? In chess for instance, white has a slight advantage, typically, for fairness, who plays white is random, a player who feels he's better than his opponent might offer to play white or even spot pieces, as a handicap. I don't recall, ATM, if it was this thread, because there are several threads getting into this kind of navel-gazing at any time, but someone brought up playing an inferior class in 3.5, as an optimization exercise, and, yeah, that's valid, I've done it. Not to play an inferior PC, but for the fun of bringing an inferior class up into the same league as the rest of a less-powergamey part. In boardgaming or wargaming, I suppose that'd make sense. 'Winning' an RPG can be more subtle than that. (It can also be pretty unsubtle, as in PvP, for instance, or the win-the-game-at-chargen attitude towards optimization, though I have to consider that kinda fringe, since it doesn't necessarily involve actually playing the game.) Some folks will say that the reward for 'winning an RPG' is continuing to play (ie, your character didn't die or otherwise become unable to continue - like getting extra lives in a video game), others will insist that there is no 'winning' at all, because it's a cooperative effort, there's collective success/failure, and individual contribution to that. In part, it was WotC taking over the franchise, and 3.x design being influenced by that 'rewards for mastery' aspect of M:tG play. Monty Cook came right out and said that. And, he noted that it'd already been there, all along, too. ;) In 4e & 5e, they've designed some of it away, though. 4e with greater designed-in balance and more frequent errata to maintain it, 5e with greater reliance on DM judgement and simply far less material to 'master.' That may have something to do with the shift you've noticed. The change you see in the world comes from a change in your own perspective. Yes. It's very amenable to long, acrimonious conversations. Oh, you'd be surprised. 'Realism' was a debate back in the day, and you'd've thought that the realism side lost that debate, but they regrouped in the early oughts as "simulationist" (as opposed to 'narrativist' or 'gamist') and there's a strong streak of that in the community, especially when it comes to tearing down something an individual doesn't like that happens to be solid, mechanically ("ARGH! too Gamist!"). [/QUOTE]
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