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A new Middle Earth d20 thread
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<blockquote data-quote="Olgar Shiverstone" data-source="post: 309389" data-attributes="member: 5868"><p>(sigh)</p><p></p><p>Yes, I'm quite aware that Gandalf/Olorin/Icanus/Mithrandir/Tharkun, and all the Istari, are Maiar. That isn't the point I'm trying to make.</p><p></p><p>(Aside -- this is a completely subjective discussion. What follows is my opinion. It won't change anyone else's. It doesn't reflect my exact feelings on the subject, but it's a devil's advocate argument. The whole discussion is akin to asking who would win a fight -- Elminster or Raistlin? There is only one answer -- who cares?)</p><p></p><p>My thesis is this: by the evidence of the writings on the 3rd Age of Middle Earth (specifically, the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings), there is nothing that requires the D&D equivalent of those characters to be high level. In fact, D&D at low levels can very accurately portray adventuring in Middle Earth.</p><p></p><p>Take Gandalf, for instance. I see no evidence in the books of him performing any feat of magic that cannot be explained by a D&D-equivalent spell of 3rd level or lower. So, conceivably, Gandalf could be a 5th level wizard! Just because he is Maiar does not imply high levels -- he was sent to Middle Earth in human form, so perhaps that form limits his powers. Or, perhaps an 8th level wizard IS the most powerful wizard in Middle Earth. Just because there are levels above that doesn't mean you have to use them -- I am trying to use the minimum possible level, to allow for the fewest deviations from core D&D rules.</p><p></p><p>Most would argue that converting Middle Earth to D&D requires a major overhaul of the magic system, since there are no "flashy" spell effects -- major damaging spells, teleportation, etc. -- in the books. I propose that you can simulate that not by overhauling the entire system, but by keeping the overall character levels low -- since the power of a 5th level wizard is consistent with what is found in the books.</p><p></p><p>Another example -- one that doesn't use magic. Aragorn may be the greatest ranger of the age, but he, Legolas, and Gimli lose the trail of the orcs they are tracking in the Two Towers when the orcs pass over some hard ground (they reacquire the trail later by a guess as to the orc's direction of travel). Now, the DMG sets the DC for tracking "a goblin that passed over hard rocks, a week ago, and it snowed yesterday" -- a MUCH more difficult feat than the tracking in Two Towers -- at 43. So Aragorn clearly is not capable of a +23 wilderness lore check, which means he must be well below 20th level as a ranger. My version of him above gives him the ability to make a DC 31 wilderness lore check -- probably just short of what would be required for that situation, which I feel accurately reflects the situation in the book.</p><p></p><p>Now the best argument in my mind for higher levels is the fight with the Balrog. That's an excellent argument if you equate Balrog = Balor; I've postulated above that a fiendish fire elemental provides an equivalent analog to the Balrog that is consistent with the "lower-level" approach to the situation. But the Balrog is a Maiar too! you exclaim. *Show me* a reference to a deed that can <strong>only</strong> be exclaimed by extremely high/epic levels, and I'll agree with you.</p><p></p><p>That's just one man's opinion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Olgar Shiverstone, post: 309389, member: 5868"] (sigh) Yes, I'm quite aware that Gandalf/Olorin/Icanus/Mithrandir/Tharkun, and all the Istari, are Maiar. That isn't the point I'm trying to make. (Aside -- this is a completely subjective discussion. What follows is my opinion. It won't change anyone else's. It doesn't reflect my exact feelings on the subject, but it's a devil's advocate argument. The whole discussion is akin to asking who would win a fight -- Elminster or Raistlin? There is only one answer -- who cares?) My thesis is this: by the evidence of the writings on the 3rd Age of Middle Earth (specifically, the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings), there is nothing that requires the D&D equivalent of those characters to be high level. In fact, D&D at low levels can very accurately portray adventuring in Middle Earth. Take Gandalf, for instance. I see no evidence in the books of him performing any feat of magic that cannot be explained by a D&D-equivalent spell of 3rd level or lower. So, conceivably, Gandalf could be a 5th level wizard! Just because he is Maiar does not imply high levels -- he was sent to Middle Earth in human form, so perhaps that form limits his powers. Or, perhaps an 8th level wizard IS the most powerful wizard in Middle Earth. Just because there are levels above that doesn't mean you have to use them -- I am trying to use the minimum possible level, to allow for the fewest deviations from core D&D rules. Most would argue that converting Middle Earth to D&D requires a major overhaul of the magic system, since there are no "flashy" spell effects -- major damaging spells, teleportation, etc. -- in the books. I propose that you can simulate that not by overhauling the entire system, but by keeping the overall character levels low -- since the power of a 5th level wizard is consistent with what is found in the books. Another example -- one that doesn't use magic. Aragorn may be the greatest ranger of the age, but he, Legolas, and Gimli lose the trail of the orcs they are tracking in the Two Towers when the orcs pass over some hard ground (they reacquire the trail later by a guess as to the orc's direction of travel). Now, the DMG sets the DC for tracking "a goblin that passed over hard rocks, a week ago, and it snowed yesterday" -- a MUCH more difficult feat than the tracking in Two Towers -- at 43. So Aragorn clearly is not capable of a +23 wilderness lore check, which means he must be well below 20th level as a ranger. My version of him above gives him the ability to make a DC 31 wilderness lore check -- probably just short of what would be required for that situation, which I feel accurately reflects the situation in the book. Now the best argument in my mind for higher levels is the fight with the Balrog. That's an excellent argument if you equate Balrog = Balor; I've postulated above that a fiendish fire elemental provides an equivalent analog to the Balrog that is consistent with the "lower-level" approach to the situation. But the Balrog is a Maiar too! you exclaim. *Show me* a reference to a deed that can [b]only[/b] be exclaimed by extremely high/epic levels, and I'll agree with you. That's just one man's opinion. [/QUOTE]
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