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<blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 369049" data-attributes="member: 4303"><p>Hi tleilaxu.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I like this idea - on a purely practical basis in order to create a baseline. Although I have issues with certain aspects of it (obviously, all of our views are slightly different...)</p><p></p><p>1. Whilst Melkor was undoubtedly <em>created</em> the greatest of the Ainur, his tragedy is one of a squandering of power and resources. As time moves on, he becomes weaker, having invested so much of his energy in his corruptions etc. This is hard to model.</p><p></p><p>2. Broadly speaking, I can agree with the rest of the Valar in terms of Order.</p><p></p><p>3. I have issues with the 20lvl cap on humans. Heroic Edain of the 1st age compare favourably to the greatest Elves in terms of martial prowess: Hurin (kills seventy trolls with his axe); Turin (second prophecy of Mandos - <em>Book of Lost Tales II</em>, I think - will slay Melkor in the final battle. Incidentally, this raises the Q of what is Canon. Is <em>Unfinished Tales</em>?). Tuor kills Balrogs with Dramborleg. Elendil. To me, at least, these are Epic level characters. </p><p></p><p>4. Gandalf or Olorin? Radagast or Aiwendil? Saruman or Curumo? I'm dubious about equating these pairs, as although they are the same persons, the Istari were purposely diminished in stature.</p><p></p><p>5. I feel Ungoliant was a Maia. Of course, YMMV.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Etc.</p><p></p><p>(Bangs head, realizing the futility of continuing.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's interesting to see how other people envision things. Its also very hard to articulate <em>why</em> I feel that certain things should be a certain way. I suspect that for a lot of us, Tolkien is such a personal experience that we are close to unshakeable in our opinions when we try and translate characters into D&D terms, and other people have other ideas.</p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I agree. The mechanism of Divine Rank works pretty well to address this. Even though I give him 60 character levels, for example, the fact that he is only DR5 (as opposed to 14 for Orome) limits his abilities enormously. Yes, he is the most powerful Warrior in Arda. No, he can't do much else.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Interesting idea: I think that with the <em>greatest</em> of their servants, there may be some mileage in this. With lesser ones, it becomes more difficult. Eonwe and Osse we know to be powerful. But there are problems.</p><p></p><p>E.g. was Sauron the <em>greatest</em> of Aule's people. We don't know. Was Curumo/Curunir?</p><p></p><p>Also, note that Olorin was 'The wisest of the Maiar.'</p><p></p><p>I agree that the Maiar seem to occupy a broad range of power - I would suggest DR 1-5 (maybe even 0-5. Is Goldberry a Maia? If we try and place her in the scheme as we know it, she would have to be. On the other hand, its perhaps too easy to 'shoe-horn' oddities like her into a known type - and 'Maia' runs the risk of becoming a catch-all.)</p><p></p><p>Melian was a servant of both Vana and Este. Tilion of Orome, Arien of Vana.</p><p></p><p>Bombadil? It is intimated that he may have had power to resist Sauron in 'The Council of Elrond' - although to what extent seems dubious.</p><p></p><p>Man, you've got to get the ELH and DDG.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sepulchrave II, post: 369049, member: 4303"] Hi tleilaxu. I like this idea - on a purely practical basis in order to create a baseline. Although I have issues with certain aspects of it (obviously, all of our views are slightly different...) 1. Whilst Melkor was undoubtedly [I]created[/I] the greatest of the Ainur, his tragedy is one of a squandering of power and resources. As time moves on, he becomes weaker, having invested so much of his energy in his corruptions etc. This is hard to model. 2. Broadly speaking, I can agree with the rest of the Valar in terms of Order. 3. I have issues with the 20lvl cap on humans. Heroic Edain of the 1st age compare favourably to the greatest Elves in terms of martial prowess: Hurin (kills seventy trolls with his axe); Turin (second prophecy of Mandos - [I]Book of Lost Tales II[/I], I think - will slay Melkor in the final battle. Incidentally, this raises the Q of what is Canon. Is [I]Unfinished Tales[/I]?). Tuor kills Balrogs with Dramborleg. Elendil. To me, at least, these are Epic level characters. 4. Gandalf or Olorin? Radagast or Aiwendil? Saruman or Curumo? I'm dubious about equating these pairs, as although they are the same persons, the Istari were purposely diminished in stature. 5. I feel Ungoliant was a Maia. Of course, YMMV. Etc. (Bangs head, realizing the futility of continuing.) It's interesting to see how other people envision things. Its also very hard to articulate [I]why[/I] I feel that certain things should be a certain way. I suspect that for a lot of us, Tolkien is such a personal experience that we are close to unshakeable in our opinions when we try and translate characters into D&D terms, and other people have other ideas. I agree. The mechanism of Divine Rank works pretty well to address this. Even though I give him 60 character levels, for example, the fact that he is only DR5 (as opposed to 14 for Orome) limits his abilities enormously. Yes, he is the most powerful Warrior in Arda. No, he can't do much else. Interesting idea: I think that with the [I]greatest[/I] of their servants, there may be some mileage in this. With lesser ones, it becomes more difficult. Eonwe and Osse we know to be powerful. But there are problems. E.g. was Sauron the [I]greatest[/I] of Aule's people. We don't know. Was Curumo/Curunir? Also, note that Olorin was 'The wisest of the Maiar.' I agree that the Maiar seem to occupy a broad range of power - I would suggest DR 1-5 (maybe even 0-5. Is Goldberry a Maia? If we try and place her in the scheme as we know it, she would have to be. On the other hand, its perhaps too easy to 'shoe-horn' oddities like her into a known type - and 'Maia' runs the risk of becoming a catch-all.) Melian was a servant of both Vana and Este. Tilion of Orome, Arien of Vana. Bombadil? It is intimated that he may have had power to resist Sauron in 'The Council of Elrond' - although to what extent seems dubious. Man, you've got to get the ELH and DDG. [/QUOTE]
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