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Community
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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
A question about Pathfinder's casters.
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4800661" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Vancian magic is in.</p><p></p><p>Fortunately, this is 3e, so you ALSO have every alternate system of spellcasting in. Psionic power points, all the alternate systems in Unearthed Arcana (recharge times, for one), the "equipped spells" method of Incarnum, the "use and recover" method of the Bo9S classes, the skill-based casting of the Truenamer, the "small suite all day" method of the Binder, the spell-like abilities of the archmage.....</p><p></p><p>3e doesn't make you fit everything into one overall power model. Sure, wizards and sorcs might still use vancian magic, but the system is compatible enough with the other 3e stuff that you can still have a "spellcaster" who doesn't use a slots system.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For the record, this is what I see as true in 4e. <strong>EVERYONE IS VANCIAN</strong>. Every power is fire-and-forget (or "use and discard"), which, in my mind, is the hallmark of Vancian resource management: you have this THING until you use it, then you can't use it again until after you rest. 4e does change the time scale of certain powers (some things don't need to recover, some things require a short rest, some things require a long rest), but I'm under the impression that Pathfinder ALSO does this (at-will cantrips and the like). 4e also makes EVERYTHING Vancian so even fighters use the fire-and-forget mechanics, and every class that will be published for 4e will be vancian, using fire-and-forget powers. One of the biggest flaws of the 4e powers system in my mind is that you can't really have alternatives. Everything is use-it-and-loose-it, always, for all classes. There are some benefits to this method, but I think the lost variety and forced homogenization of playstyles is a fantastically aggravating thing. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it's Vancian, because no matter how tired you are from using up all of one power, it doesn't affect your ability to use any other power. A power points/mana points/magic points model like FFZ or the 3e psionics system would be a "stamina" model. 4e's powers are self-contained effects, something like cards from Magic: The Gathering (and similar to the vancian spells of earlier editions). Using one won't hurt your ability to use another.</p><p></p><p>Part of the reason for this, no doubt, is to dodge the "nova" issue that 3e psionics had, where if you went all-out in one combat, you'd be useless until tomorrow. Stamina models can aggrivate this problem. Though there are some solutions, I don't think 4e was ever really interested in a stamina model. I think they're entirely happy with a Vancian, card-like model because it's simpler to design, simpler to calculate the effects of, and ultimately limited by the number of powers you design rather than dominated by one or two big, expensive, exhausting powers.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 4800661, member: 2067"] Vancian magic is in. Fortunately, this is 3e, so you ALSO have every alternate system of spellcasting in. Psionic power points, all the alternate systems in Unearthed Arcana (recharge times, for one), the "equipped spells" method of Incarnum, the "use and recover" method of the Bo9S classes, the skill-based casting of the Truenamer, the "small suite all day" method of the Binder, the spell-like abilities of the archmage..... 3e doesn't make you fit everything into one overall power model. Sure, wizards and sorcs might still use vancian magic, but the system is compatible enough with the other 3e stuff that you can still have a "spellcaster" who doesn't use a slots system. For the record, this is what I see as true in 4e. [B]EVERYONE IS VANCIAN[/B]. Every power is fire-and-forget (or "use and discard"), which, in my mind, is the hallmark of Vancian resource management: you have this THING until you use it, then you can't use it again until after you rest. 4e does change the time scale of certain powers (some things don't need to recover, some things require a short rest, some things require a long rest), but I'm under the impression that Pathfinder ALSO does this (at-will cantrips and the like). 4e also makes EVERYTHING Vancian so even fighters use the fire-and-forget mechanics, and every class that will be published for 4e will be vancian, using fire-and-forget powers. One of the biggest flaws of the 4e powers system in my mind is that you can't really have alternatives. Everything is use-it-and-loose-it, always, for all classes. There are some benefits to this method, but I think the lost variety and forced homogenization of playstyles is a fantastically aggravating thing. No, it's Vancian, because no matter how tired you are from using up all of one power, it doesn't affect your ability to use any other power. A power points/mana points/magic points model like FFZ or the 3e psionics system would be a "stamina" model. 4e's powers are self-contained effects, something like cards from Magic: The Gathering (and similar to the vancian spells of earlier editions). Using one won't hurt your ability to use another. Part of the reason for this, no doubt, is to dodge the "nova" issue that 3e psionics had, where if you went all-out in one combat, you'd be useless until tomorrow. Stamina models can aggrivate this problem. Though there are some solutions, I don't think 4e was ever really interested in a stamina model. I think they're entirely happy with a Vancian, card-like model because it's simpler to design, simpler to calculate the effects of, and ultimately limited by the number of powers you design rather than dominated by one or two big, expensive, exhausting powers. [/QUOTE]
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