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<blockquote data-quote="Leatherhead" data-source="post: 6749518" data-attributes="member: 53176"><p>Apologies in advance to all the colorblind people out there, I needed more formatting options because words have more than one meaning.</p><p></p><p>I have noticed when talking about action economy, people tend to say things like "But Haste exists, therefore action economy is broken!" And when discussing things like that new Tunnel Fighter, people aren't quite sure what kind of action it is, leading to people thinking it is a<span style="color: #008080"> Free Action</span>, or a<span style="color: #008000"> Bonus Action</span> taken out of turn somehow.</p><p></p><p>Well, that's actually not at all true, what is happening is that some characters are using one type of action and/or limited resources to pay for another type of action, at a premium.</p><p></p><p>Lets go down the list of things you can do in a <em>Round</em>. Remember: A <u>Turn</u> is for you, and a <em>Round</em> is when the entire table has a <u>Turn</u>. That gets confusing sometimes, I know. </p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #FF0000">Concentration</span>: Passively doing something important. Think of this as your PC with a ton of peripherals, but only one USB port to plug them all into. You can end <span style="color: #FF0000">concentration</span> at any time with <span style="color: #DAA520">no action</span> at all. <span style="color: #FF0000">Concentration</span> is broken when you cast another spell (or use an ability/power) that requires <span style="color: #FF0000">concentration</span>, whenever you take damage (Con save DC 10 or 1/2 of the damage you took, whichever is higher, to negate) When you are incapacitated (status) or killed, and any time the DM feels like it shouldn't be possible. Also, you can't <span style="color: #FF0000">concentrate</span> on two spells at once.<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #0000FF">Action</span>: This is where the action happens, literally. Your attacks, most spells, important item use, and even running away for your life all key off this part.<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #FF8C00">Move</span>: Not actually an action. You can move before, during, or after your <span style="color: #0000FF">Action</span> and/or any other parts of your <u>turn</u>. You can even use multiple types of movement on your <u>turn</u> if you posses them. <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #008000">Bonus Action</span>: Should be called "Schrödinger's Action" Seeing as how these things don't actually exist until triggered by something. In general, they are weaker than<span style="color: #0000FF"> Actions</span>, and the harder they are to trigger the stronger they get. <span style="color: #008000">Bonus Actions</span> can can be done at any time during your <u>turn</u>, unless they have a specific trigger, and can't happen if you cannot perform <span style="color: #0000FF">Actions</span>. Like if you are stunned. You can only perform one of these a <u>turn</u>, even if you have multiple ways of triggering them.<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #EE82EE">Reaction</span>: Similar to the Bonus Action, these don't happen unless they are triggered by something. Unlike the Bonus Action, you start of your <u>turn</u> with one "Reaction point" (to spend on a single <span style="color: #EE82EE">Reaction</span>), and they don't refresh until the start of your next <u>turn</u>. Note: If you can somehow take more than one <u>turn</u> per <em>round</em>, you would get a <span style="color: #EE82EE">Reaction</span> for each of those <u>turns</u>. Mostly used for OAs or defensive powers. The limit of one is to keep combat fast.<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #800080">Interaction</span>: Opening doors, drawing weapons. Once per <u>turn</u> you can ready a simple object for proper use as part of your <span style="color: #FFA500">Move</span> or <span style="color: #0000FF">Action</span>. There is a handy list on PHB190 for examples on how simple.<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #DAA520">Non Action</span>: Some powers, spells, or odd rules combinations give your character something to do which does not cost you any time in a <u>turn</u>.<br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="color: #008080">Communication Flourish</span>: A.K.A "Free Action." Talking, basically. Any idea you can convey in about 6 seconds doesn't cost you a more significant part of your <u>turn</u>.</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p>You will notice that I worded that list in a strange order, that's because the order goes from "Most valuable" to "Least valuable" parts of the <u>turn</u>. Note the quotation marks: That one time when you saved the multiverce with a <span style="color: #008080">Free Action</span> Speech isn't in the scope of typical play, nor the scope of this discussion. You should go post that in the Story Hour Forum if you still feel the need. Your character is probably not using all of their <u>turn</u> up during the <em>round</em>. With 8 kinds of different things (or more) that can potentially happen, some of which have to be triggered, and some can be broken up into multiple different stages, it is bound that a few of them are going to slip through the cracks. Most people are happy if they can get the <span style="color: #000080">Action</span>, <span style="color: #FFA500">Move</span>, <span style="color: #008000">Bonus Action</span>, and <span style="color: #FF0000">Concentration</span> down pat.</p><p></p><p>Now that you know what is possible, it is time to discuss what trading away your time does for you.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In regards to <strong>Haste</strong>: You spend your <span style="color: #FF0000">Concentration</span>, and an <span style="color: #0000FF">Action</span>, and your spell slot, in order to give a buff to the target's <span style="color: #0000FF">Action </span>(but only when attacking) and <span style="color: #FFA500">Move</span>. Basically it's good for Barbarians and Paladins, classes or characters that get lots of bonus damage on all of their attacks, but only a few attacks per <u>turn</u>. Fighters and Rogues, in contrast, get very little DPR boost from a single extra attack, because of how their mechanics work. Obviously, such a trade off can be worth it, or else nobody would ever do it. But it doesn't actually give you more time in a <em>round</em>, just better use of two actions at a cost.</p><p></p><p>For another example, <strong>Flaming Sphere</strong> uses your trio of <span style="color: #FF0000">Concentration</span>/<span style="color: #0000FF">Action</span>/spell slot, so the caster can subsequently use <span style="color: #008000">Bonus Actions</span> to make other people burn to death.</p><p></p><p>These are how the action economy is supposed to work: Trade a higher action (and other stuff) for boost to a lower action, or for an opportunity to use one of the triggered action types.</p><p></p><p><strong>Tunnel Fighter</strong> is an odd duck. Probably because it's from UA. It uses a <span style="color: #008000">Bonus Action</span> to enter a "stance" until the start of your next <u>turn</u>, basically an entire <em>round</em>. While in this stance you can make Opportunity Attacks without spending your <span style="color: #EE82EE">reaction</span> (that One "Reaction Point" I talked about up there). Additionally you can spend your <span style="color: #EE82EE">reaction</span> to make an (untyped) melee Attack against creatures that move more than 5' while in your reach.</p><p></p><p>Stances have no associated mechanic. It's not in the action list, and there is no rule for how many stances you can use. Stances were the Martial power source's equivalent to <span style="color: #FF0000">concentration</span> back in 4e. The cost is rather clear, most of the characters who use attacks, love to get <span style="color: #008000">Bonus Action</span> Attacks, and while they aren't the greatest source of damage, it is something that everyone will care about. As opposed to <span style="color: #FF0000">concentration</span>, which most Fighters don't even have a use for to begin with, and multi-class Barbarians can't use anyway. Come to think of it, it's a bit strange you can maintain a stance and rage at the same time. It's also a bit strange you can be rendered incapacitated, then "healed" and still maintain it.</p><p></p><p><strong>Tunnel Fighter</strong> lets you have limitless Opportunity Attacks, at the cost of your <span style="color: #008000">Bonus Action</span>. It also gives you a single more powerful variation of an Opportunity Attack, which can be used when the target is forced to move, or when they shift around inside your reach, because it's an untyped attack with no rules other than what this feat explicitly describes. To be fair, most of the time, you aren't going to get all of those OAs. But, with the help of your team, you will get a use for your <span style="color: #EE82EE">Reaction</span> (which can be quite rare with some DM's) and even generate quite a few free hits in the process. </p><p></p><p><strong>Tunnel Fighter</strong> actually generates more actions, and can significantly slow down combat. It's also full of holes. (What is a stance anyway?) I would call it broken, but not in the "overpowered" meaning. Just the "this thing doesn't work right" meaning.</p><p></p><p><strong>Conjure</strong> spells, are another kind of broken thing. In that they generate tons of actions by virtue of summoning lots of creatures to fight. They also slow down combat a bunch, which is kinda bad.</p><p></p><p>And then there are Beastmaster Rangers, which have had all kinds of threads about how they aren't actually worth what you trade into them. For an example of how things can be broken in the other direction.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Leatherhead, post: 6749518, member: 53176"] Apologies in advance to all the colorblind people out there, I needed more formatting options because words have more than one meaning. I have noticed when talking about action economy, people tend to say things like "But Haste exists, therefore action economy is broken!" And when discussing things like that new Tunnel Fighter, people aren't quite sure what kind of action it is, leading to people thinking it is a[COLOR="#008080"] Free Action[/COLOR], or a[COLOR="#008000"] Bonus Action[/COLOR] taken out of turn somehow. Well, that's actually not at all true, what is happening is that some characters are using one type of action and/or limited resources to pay for another type of action, at a premium. Lets go down the list of things you can do in a [I]Round[/I]. Remember: A [U]Turn[/U] is for you, and a [I]Round[/I] is when the entire table has a [U]Turn[/U]. That gets confusing sometimes, I know. [LIST] [*][COLOR="#FF0000"]Concentration[/COLOR]: Passively doing something important. Think of this as your PC with a ton of peripherals, but only one USB port to plug them all into. You can end [COLOR="#FF0000"]concentration[/COLOR] at any time with [COLOR="#DAA520"]no action[/COLOR] at all. [COLOR="#FF0000"]Concentration[/COLOR] is broken when you cast another spell (or use an ability/power) that requires [COLOR="#FF0000"]concentration[/COLOR], whenever you take damage (Con save DC 10 or 1/2 of the damage you took, whichever is higher, to negate) When you are incapacitated (status) or killed, and any time the DM feels like it shouldn't be possible. Also, you can't [COLOR="#FF0000"]concentrate[/COLOR] on two spells at once. [*][COLOR="#0000FF"]Action[/COLOR]: This is where the action happens, literally. Your attacks, most spells, important item use, and even running away for your life all key off this part. [*][COLOR="#FF8C00"]Move[/COLOR]: Not actually an action. You can move before, during, or after your [COLOR="#0000FF"]Action[/COLOR] and/or any other parts of your [U]turn[/U]. You can even use multiple types of movement on your [U]turn[/U] if you posses them. [*][COLOR="#008000"]Bonus Action[/COLOR]: Should be called "Schrödinger's Action" Seeing as how these things don't actually exist until triggered by something. In general, they are weaker than[COLOR="#0000FF"] Actions[/COLOR], and the harder they are to trigger the stronger they get. [COLOR="#008000"]Bonus Actions[/COLOR] can can be done at any time during your [U]turn[/U], unless they have a specific trigger, and can't happen if you cannot perform [COLOR="#0000FF"]Actions[/COLOR]. Like if you are stunned. You can only perform one of these a [U]turn[/U], even if you have multiple ways of triggering them. [*][COLOR="#EE82EE"]Reaction[/COLOR]: Similar to the Bonus Action, these don't happen unless they are triggered by something. Unlike the Bonus Action, you start of your [U]turn[/U] with one "Reaction point" (to spend on a single [COLOR="#EE82EE"]Reaction[/COLOR]), and they don't refresh until the start of your next [U]turn[/U]. Note: If you can somehow take more than one [U]turn[/U] per [I]round[/I], you would get a [COLOR="#EE82EE"]Reaction[/COLOR] for each of those [U]turns[/U]. Mostly used for OAs or defensive powers. The limit of one is to keep combat fast. [*][COLOR="#800080"]Interaction[/COLOR]: Opening doors, drawing weapons. Once per [U]turn[/U] you can ready a simple object for proper use as part of your [COLOR="#FFA500"]Move[/COLOR] or [COLOR="#0000FF"]Action[/COLOR]. There is a handy list on PHB190 for examples on how simple. [*][COLOR="#DAA520"]Non Action[/COLOR]: Some powers, spells, or odd rules combinations give your character something to do which does not cost you any time in a [U]turn[/U]. [*][COLOR="#008080"]Communication Flourish[/COLOR]: A.K.A "Free Action." Talking, basically. Any idea you can convey in about 6 seconds doesn't cost you a more significant part of your [U]turn[/U]. [/LIST] You will notice that I worded that list in a strange order, that's because the order goes from "Most valuable" to "Least valuable" parts of the [U]turn[/U]. Note the quotation marks: That one time when you saved the multiverce with a [COLOR="#008080"]Free Action[/COLOR] Speech isn't in the scope of typical play, nor the scope of this discussion. You should go post that in the Story Hour Forum if you still feel the need. Your character is probably not using all of their [U]turn[/U] up during the [I]round[/I]. With 8 kinds of different things (or more) that can potentially happen, some of which have to be triggered, and some can be broken up into multiple different stages, it is bound that a few of them are going to slip through the cracks. Most people are happy if they can get the [COLOR="#000080"]Action[/COLOR], [COLOR="#FFA500"]Move[/COLOR], [COLOR="#008000"]Bonus Action[/COLOR], and [COLOR="#FF0000"]Concentration[/COLOR] down pat. Now that you know what is possible, it is time to discuss what trading away your time does for you. In regards to [B]Haste[/B]: You spend your [COLOR="#FF0000"]Concentration[/COLOR], and an [COLOR="#0000FF"]Action[/COLOR], and your spell slot, in order to give a buff to the target's [COLOR="#0000FF"]Action [/COLOR](but only when attacking) and [COLOR="#FFA500"]Move[/COLOR]. Basically it's good for Barbarians and Paladins, classes or characters that get lots of bonus damage on all of their attacks, but only a few attacks per [U]turn[/U]. Fighters and Rogues, in contrast, get very little DPR boost from a single extra attack, because of how their mechanics work. Obviously, such a trade off can be worth it, or else nobody would ever do it. But it doesn't actually give you more time in a [I]round[/I], just better use of two actions at a cost. For another example, [B]Flaming Sphere[/b] uses your trio of [COLOR="#FF0000"]Concentration[/COLOR]/[COLOR="#0000FF"]Action[/COLOR]/spell slot, so the caster can subsequently use [COLOR="#008000"]Bonus Actions[/COLOR] to make other people burn to death. These are how the action economy is supposed to work: Trade a higher action (and other stuff) for boost to a lower action, or for an opportunity to use one of the triggered action types. [B]Tunnel Fighter[/B] is an odd duck. Probably because it's from UA. It uses a [COLOR="#008000"]Bonus Action[/COLOR] to enter a "stance" until the start of your next [U]turn[/U], basically an entire [I]round[/I]. While in this stance you can make Opportunity Attacks without spending your [COLOR="#EE82EE"]reaction[/COLOR] (that One "Reaction Point" I talked about up there). Additionally you can spend your [COLOR="#EE82EE"]reaction[/COLOR] to make an (untyped) melee Attack against creatures that move more than 5' while in your reach. Stances have no associated mechanic. It's not in the action list, and there is no rule for how many stances you can use. Stances were the Martial power source's equivalent to [COLOR="#FF0000"]concentration[/COLOR] back in 4e. The cost is rather clear, most of the characters who use attacks, love to get [COLOR="#008000"]Bonus Action[/COLOR] Attacks, and while they aren't the greatest source of damage, it is something that everyone will care about. As opposed to [COLOR="#FF0000"]concentration[/COLOR], which most Fighters don't even have a use for to begin with, and multi-class Barbarians can't use anyway. Come to think of it, it's a bit strange you can maintain a stance and rage at the same time. It's also a bit strange you can be rendered incapacitated, then "healed" and still maintain it. [B]Tunnel Fighter[/B] lets you have limitless Opportunity Attacks, at the cost of your [COLOR="#008000"]Bonus Action[/COLOR]. It also gives you a single more powerful variation of an Opportunity Attack, which can be used when the target is forced to move, or when they shift around inside your reach, because it's an untyped attack with no rules other than what this feat explicitly describes. To be fair, most of the time, you aren't going to get all of those OAs. But, with the help of your team, you will get a use for your [COLOR="#EE82EE"]Reaction[/COLOR] (which can be quite rare with some DM's) and even generate quite a few free hits in the process. [B]Tunnel Fighter[/B] actually generates more actions, and can significantly slow down combat. It's also full of holes. (What is a stance anyway?) I would call it broken, but not in the "overpowered" meaning. Just the "this thing doesn't work right" meaning. [B]Conjure[/B] spells, are another kind of broken thing. In that they generate tons of actions by virtue of summoning lots of creatures to fight. They also slow down combat a bunch, which is kinda bad. And then there are Beastmaster Rangers, which have had all kinds of threads about how they aren't actually worth what you trade into them. For an example of how things can be broken in the other direction. [/QUOTE]
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