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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7992212" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Compared to 3E/5E style multiclassing PF2 offers next to no real customization power. And by that I mean "creating a character stronger in combat than the others".</p><p></p><p>Examples: 3E allowed you to create a paladin with nigh-impenetrable saves, because the very first level of a prestige class granted an outsized save bonus, for instance. There is zero ways to create "a fighter, but with a better to-hit than anyone else in exchange for a worse AC" for instance. (Instead you're asked to create a Barbarian that's designed that way from the start, which isn't the same thing or even close). Paizo doesn't trust you to decide for yourself which of the three saving throws you want your character to excel at - it's decided by your choice of class at level 1. The end.</p><p></p><p>After all minmaxing is the art of maximizing your strengths in areas with the greatest impact (most commonly, the ability to turn live monsters into dead ones) at the expense of having weaknesses, preferably in areas with a lower impact than the devs could imagine (through clever tactics, if nothing else).</p><p></p><p>The archetypal (and <s>probably</s> prejudiced) munchkin example: doing more damage at the expense of being worse at social encounters (moving points from Charisma to Strength). By then never engaging in diplomacy, and instead slaughtering every ugly mug you see*, you have effectively negated your weakness while maximizing the utility of your strength.</p><p></p><p>My players have found that minmaxing in the build stage is exceedingly difficult in PF2. It does seem like Paizo have failed to make all classes equally strong, and so about the only advice I can give you at this stage is "play barbarians and bards instead of alchemists and wizards". Once you've made that choice at level 1, though, you aren't given any other opportunities to make a difference.</p><p></p><p>Personally, I actually like that especially items can give you an edge over and beyond the expected math, and this is why I think Paizo went too far. If 3E was broken as naughty word, and 4E was way way too contained, I personally prefer 5E's stance over PF2 in this regard. Put plainly: PF2 contains way too many feats and magic items that remind me of 4E magic items - very bland and mediocre bonuses you don't get unless you're willing to jump through surprisingly byzantine hoops.</p><p></p><p><em>*) D&D is positively neanderthalian in this regard - if you look good, you are overwhelmingly likely to actually <strong>be</strong> good. If you look monstrous, you are quite often literally a monster. And yes, I'm talking about adventures written in 2020, not just 1970. I would say that substituting "detect evil" for "would I naughty word it" doesn't give appreciably worse readings overall... so maybe them munchkins had a point all along?</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7992212, member: 12731"] Compared to 3E/5E style multiclassing PF2 offers next to no real customization power. And by that I mean "creating a character stronger in combat than the others". Examples: 3E allowed you to create a paladin with nigh-impenetrable saves, because the very first level of a prestige class granted an outsized save bonus, for instance. There is zero ways to create "a fighter, but with a better to-hit than anyone else in exchange for a worse AC" for instance. (Instead you're asked to create a Barbarian that's designed that way from the start, which isn't the same thing or even close). Paizo doesn't trust you to decide for yourself which of the three saving throws you want your character to excel at - it's decided by your choice of class at level 1. The end. After all minmaxing is the art of maximizing your strengths in areas with the greatest impact (most commonly, the ability to turn live monsters into dead ones) at the expense of having weaknesses, preferably in areas with a lower impact than the devs could imagine (through clever tactics, if nothing else). The archetypal (and [S]probably[/S] prejudiced) munchkin example: doing more damage at the expense of being worse at social encounters (moving points from Charisma to Strength). By then never engaging in diplomacy, and instead slaughtering every ugly mug you see*, you have effectively negated your weakness while maximizing the utility of your strength. My players have found that minmaxing in the build stage is exceedingly difficult in PF2. It does seem like Paizo have failed to make all classes equally strong, and so about the only advice I can give you at this stage is "play barbarians and bards instead of alchemists and wizards". Once you've made that choice at level 1, though, you aren't given any other opportunities to make a difference. Personally, I actually like that especially items can give you an edge over and beyond the expected math, and this is why I think Paizo went too far. If 3E was broken as naughty word, and 4E was way way too contained, I personally prefer 5E's stance over PF2 in this regard. Put plainly: PF2 contains way too many feats and magic items that remind me of 4E magic items - very bland and mediocre bonuses you don't get unless you're willing to jump through surprisingly byzantine hoops. [I]*) D&D is positively neanderthalian in this regard - if you look good, you are overwhelmingly likely to actually [B]be[/B] good. If you look monstrous, you are quite often literally a monster. And yes, I'm talking about adventures written in 2020, not just 1970. I would say that substituting "detect evil" for "would I naughty word it" doesn't give appreciably worse readings overall... so maybe them munchkins had a point all along?[/I] [/QUOTE]
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