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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 7993776" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>I understand your viewpoint within the framework of min-maxing. I don't think it applies to the word variation though. There is plenty of variation in PF2 and it doesn't punish you as badly as PF1 and 5E to choose to do what you want. You certainly don't have to make bards and barbaraians to be effective. Even a wizard can be very effective. Not as effective as a PF1 wizard, though I would say a wizard is as effective as a 5E wizard. 5E wizards sucked too compared to what they were.</p><p></p><p>We could start a whole new thread discussing comparative variation with examples. I do believe the PF2 core rulebook has more variation than did PF1 core rulebook. We'll see how good the chassis is at allowing expanded options in supplements. Supplements are where PF1 grew into the game so many of us loved for so many years.</p><p></p><p>One thing I know for certain is that PF2 allows far more character concepts to be realized because of the tight math which makes it so min-maxers can also role-play because they don't always have to fit their concept into the min-max combat box. Every worthwhile martial doesn't have to be a 2-handed weapon, power attacking Greatsword wielder with a wide crit range to feel useful. Every archer doesn't have to buy the same deadly aim, many shot, etc. feats usually as a monk to be the top guy. Casters don't absolutely rule the game at the upper levels so martials become little more than PC versions of summoned monsters waiting for buffs from their caster masters. To me that allows for a great deal more variation than PF1.</p><p></p><p>So I guess we just disagree on what variation is as I see more variation in PF2 and more opportunity for variation when the system doesn't punish choices to the same degree that PF1 and 5E did in combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 7993776, member: 5834"] I understand your viewpoint within the framework of min-maxing. I don't think it applies to the word variation though. There is plenty of variation in PF2 and it doesn't punish you as badly as PF1 and 5E to choose to do what you want. You certainly don't have to make bards and barbaraians to be effective. Even a wizard can be very effective. Not as effective as a PF1 wizard, though I would say a wizard is as effective as a 5E wizard. 5E wizards sucked too compared to what they were. We could start a whole new thread discussing comparative variation with examples. I do believe the PF2 core rulebook has more variation than did PF1 core rulebook. We'll see how good the chassis is at allowing expanded options in supplements. Supplements are where PF1 grew into the game so many of us loved for so many years. One thing I know for certain is that PF2 allows far more character concepts to be realized because of the tight math which makes it so min-maxers can also role-play because they don't always have to fit their concept into the min-max combat box. Every worthwhile martial doesn't have to be a 2-handed weapon, power attacking Greatsword wielder with a wide crit range to feel useful. Every archer doesn't have to buy the same deadly aim, many shot, etc. feats usually as a monk to be the top guy. Casters don't absolutely rule the game at the upper levels so martials become little more than PC versions of summoned monsters waiting for buffs from their caster masters. To me that allows for a great deal more variation than PF1. So I guess we just disagree on what variation is as I see more variation in PF2 and more opportunity for variation when the system doesn't punish choices to the same degree that PF1 and 5E did in combat. [/QUOTE]
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