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Actual play examples - balance between fiction and mechanics
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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5463822" data-attributes="member: 18280"><p>No one has to be an expert on "bear" psychology. Establishing dominance through a display of power may intimidate an X, and it may keep the X from attacking you, but that is not the same thing at all as "soothing" or "calming" it! </p><p></p><p>Intimidate =/= soothe, and those were the words you used. Indeed, one rather precludes the other. </p><p></p><p>One hardly needs to be an expert in bear psychology...indeed, one need not even know what a bear is...to see the problem here!</p><p></p><p><img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Recall, though, that I am not talking absolutes here. A "fiction first" system is predominantly fiction first (i.e., it takes the lead of the fiction whenever possible), whereas a "rules-first" system is only predominantly rules first. Both will run into situations where it is either impossible or undesireable to be completely fiction- or rules-first.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unless a successful Intimidate counteracts the attempted Soothe, I would say that there is still quite a strong dichotomy present.</p><p></p><p>But, be aware that I am talking about the example as presented. I am not talking about some other hypothetical example which has not been presented. Nor am I making some claim that pemerton "had to" run the encounter the way that he did. I would, however, make the claim that both the ruleset and its presentation influenced the choices that he made in running it in this way. </p><p></p><p>And if pemerton, who is a smart, experienced, GM, was influenced in this way, what hope does a newby, wet-behind-the-ears DM have?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are two possibilities involved.</p><p></p><p>In the first case, the DM determines how difficult the encounter is going to be, and that is how difficult the encounter is, regardless of the choices that the players make.</p><p></p><p>In the second case, the DM determines how the encounter is set up, and the players make decisions that determine how difficult the encounter is. In this set up, some encounters reward combat, while others might reward quick thinking or parlay.</p><p></p><p>If the DM adjusts the encounter on the fly to present a "skill challenge" (or other such construct) that is intended to match the difficulty of a combat challenge simply because the players decide not to fight, then it is of the first kind.</p><p></p><p>The reverse (skill challenge to combat) would be if Stephen Hawking challenged the PCs to physics trivia, and when (knowing that the could not beat Stephen in his given field) the players decided to simply kill him, he became an unbeatable physical opponent, too.</p><p></p><p>When you look at it that way, you can see the problem with making a challenge equal, regardless of how it is faced. I hope. Doing so takes away a meaningful player choice (how should we tackle this problem?) that has been the backbone of the game since it was first played.</p><p></p><p><em><strong>And, again, please note that I am not claiming that any game has to be played like this.</strong></em> But I am saying that some games <strong><em>encourage it more than others</em></strong>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I hope you can see the difference between the DM making that choice based upon the logic of the scenario (fiction-first), making that choice to force a particular level of challenge because the mechanics of later encounters require that the PCs level before moving on (rules-first), and making that choice because the scenario is going to play out that way no matter what the players choose (railroad-first). </p><p></p><p>In the first case, the degree to which the players understand the situation informs their tactics and choices.</p><p></p><p>In the second case, the degree to which the players understand the rules informs their tactics and choices.</p><p></p><p>In the third case, find a new DM. </p><p></p><p><img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And to you, brother! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite6" alt=":cool:" title="Cool :cool:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cool:" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>RC</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 5463822, member: 18280"] No one has to be an expert on "bear" psychology. Establishing dominance through a display of power may intimidate an X, and it may keep the X from attacking you, but that is not the same thing at all as "soothing" or "calming" it! Intimidate =/= soothe, and those were the words you used. Indeed, one rather precludes the other. One hardly needs to be an expert in bear psychology...indeed, one need not even know what a bear is...to see the problem here! :lol: Recall, though, that I am not talking absolutes here. A "fiction first" system is predominantly fiction first (i.e., it takes the lead of the fiction whenever possible), whereas a "rules-first" system is only predominantly rules first. Both will run into situations where it is either impossible or undesireable to be completely fiction- or rules-first. Unless a successful Intimidate counteracts the attempted Soothe, I would say that there is still quite a strong dichotomy present. But, be aware that I am talking about the example as presented. I am not talking about some other hypothetical example which has not been presented. Nor am I making some claim that pemerton "had to" run the encounter the way that he did. I would, however, make the claim that both the ruleset and its presentation influenced the choices that he made in running it in this way. And if pemerton, who is a smart, experienced, GM, was influenced in this way, what hope does a newby, wet-behind-the-ears DM have? There are two possibilities involved. In the first case, the DM determines how difficult the encounter is going to be, and that is how difficult the encounter is, regardless of the choices that the players make. In the second case, the DM determines how the encounter is set up, and the players make decisions that determine how difficult the encounter is. In this set up, some encounters reward combat, while others might reward quick thinking or parlay. If the DM adjusts the encounter on the fly to present a "skill challenge" (or other such construct) that is intended to match the difficulty of a combat challenge simply because the players decide not to fight, then it is of the first kind. The reverse (skill challenge to combat) would be if Stephen Hawking challenged the PCs to physics trivia, and when (knowing that the could not beat Stephen in his given field) the players decided to simply kill him, he became an unbeatable physical opponent, too. When you look at it that way, you can see the problem with making a challenge equal, regardless of how it is faced. I hope. Doing so takes away a meaningful player choice (how should we tackle this problem?) that has been the backbone of the game since it was first played. [I][B]And, again, please note that I am not claiming that any game has to be played like this.[/B][/I] But I am saying that some games [B][I]encourage it more than others[/I][/B]. I hope you can see the difference between the DM making that choice based upon the logic of the scenario (fiction-first), making that choice to force a particular level of challenge because the mechanics of later encounters require that the PCs level before moving on (rules-first), and making that choice because the scenario is going to play out that way no matter what the players choose (railroad-first). In the first case, the degree to which the players understand the situation informs their tactics and choices. In the second case, the degree to which the players understand the rules informs their tactics and choices. In the third case, find a new DM. :lol: And to you, brother! :cool: RC [/QUOTE]
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