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<blockquote data-quote="ObsidianCrane" data-source="post: 4898667" data-attributes="member: 54918"><p>I'm yet to see a person manage to explain where Holy Ardor says you automatically hit. Those words do not appear in the power at all, nor s there any text in the power that references those rules.</p><p></p><p>It says "critical hit" and then gives an if clause, and an exception.</p><p></p><p>The rules for critical hits are clear, they are only a critical hit if you would hit. Nothing in Holy Ardor explicitly over-rides this text. People are adding additional meaning to the text of Holy Ardor due to ommision of words, without allowing for different gramatical structure from other powers.</p><p></p><p>The presence of the "except on double 1's" part seems to be adding to the confusion, however that exception is likely present to clarify that the "you miss on a 1" rule is still in effect, other wise you get the following conflict.</p><p></p><p>General Rule: Automatic Miss - Miss on a 1.</p><p>Specfic Rule: Score a Critical Hit when rolling the same number on 2 dice.</p><p>Specific Rules References General Rule #2 - Critical Hits.</p><p>Critical Hits say that if you would hit with your result then your damage is maximised.</p><p></p><p>By putting in the exception the possible conflict between the Specific Rule of the power, and the General Rule of Missing on a Nat 1 is clarified.</p><p></p><p>This is the text for Holy Ardor: </p><p>Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Here it is with the rules call outs added:</p><p>Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit (Critical Hits pg 278) if both dice have the same roll (Precision page 278), except if both rolls are 1 (Automatic Miss).</p><p></p><p>Critical Hits Pg 278: When you roll a natural 20 and your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense, you score a critical hit, also known as a crit.</p><p></p><p>Do you say anywhere in the power that says your attack roll does not need to be high enough to hit your target's defense? (I do not.)</p><p></p><p>Critical Hit Damage: page 278</p><p>Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.</p><p></p><p>Do you see anything in the power that says your roll is a natural 20? If no then this specific rule does not apply, if yes then it does. (I do not.)</p><p></p><p>Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit).</p><p></p><p>Do you see a class feature allowing you to score a crtical hit when you roll a number other than 20? (I do) If yes then Precision applies, unless explicitly over-ridden. Note Precision expressly calls out the need for a Natural 20 to gain an automatic hit. </p><p></p><p>There is no point referencing how damage works for crits as it is irrelevant to the discussion.</p><p></p><p>The power at no time creates an explicit exception to the Automtic Hit rule which is found on page 276, and nor does it use language to explicitly over-ride the relevant specific elements of the general critical hit rules - Natural 20 or Precision.</p><p></p><p>The only way it does is if the game term of "critical hit" is seperated into its component words "critical" and "hit" which it doesn't have text to support.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ObsidianCrane, post: 4898667, member: 54918"] I'm yet to see a person manage to explain where Holy Ardor says you automatically hit. Those words do not appear in the power at all, nor s there any text in the power that references those rules. It says "critical hit" and then gives an if clause, and an exception. The rules for critical hits are clear, they are only a critical hit if you would hit. Nothing in Holy Ardor explicitly over-rides this text. People are adding additional meaning to the text of Holy Ardor due to ommision of words, without allowing for different gramatical structure from other powers. The presence of the "except on double 1's" part seems to be adding to the confusion, however that exception is likely present to clarify that the "you miss on a 1" rule is still in effect, other wise you get the following conflict. General Rule: Automatic Miss - Miss on a 1. Specfic Rule: Score a Critical Hit when rolling the same number on 2 dice. Specific Rules References General Rule #2 - Critical Hits. Critical Hits say that if you would hit with your result then your damage is maximised. By putting in the exception the possible conflict between the Specific Rule of the power, and the General Rule of Missing on a Nat 1 is clarified. This is the text for Holy Ardor: Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice have the same roll, except if both rolls are 1. Here it is with the rules call outs added: Holy Ardor (11th level) : Whenever you make two attack rolls because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit (Critical Hits pg 278) if both dice have the same roll (Precision page 278), except if both rolls are 1 (Automatic Miss). Critical Hits Pg 278: When you roll a natural 20 and your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense, you score a critical hit, also known as a crit. Do you say anywhere in the power that says your attack roll does not need to be high enough to hit your target's defense? (I do not.) Critical Hit Damage: page 278 Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically. Do you see anything in the power that says your roll is a natural 20? If no then this specific rule does not apply, if yes then it does. (I do not.) Precision: Some class features and powers allow you to score a critical hit when you roll numbers other than 20 (only a natural 20 is an automatic hit). Do you see a class feature allowing you to score a crtical hit when you roll a number other than 20? (I do) If yes then Precision applies, unless explicitly over-ridden. Note Precision expressly calls out the need for a Natural 20 to gain an automatic hit. There is no point referencing how damage works for crits as it is irrelevant to the discussion. The power at no time creates an explicit exception to the Automtic Hit rule which is found on page 276, and nor does it use language to explicitly over-ride the relevant specific elements of the general critical hit rules - Natural 20 or Precision. The only way it does is if the game term of "critical hit" is seperated into its component words "critical" and "hit" which it doesn't have text to support. [/QUOTE]
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