Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Adventures that are NOT dungeon crawls.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 4819216" data-attributes="member: 80487"><p>What's odd to me is that the characterization is at odds with the principles of the traditional D&D dungeon. Is every dungeon expedition a "crawl", or is that term being used to distinguish poorly designed dungeons from well designed ones?</p><p></p><p><strong>"The players move from combat to combat with little or no chance to make any meaningful choices other than how they are going to kill the current and/or next group of baddies." </strong>Assaulting a well defended fortress can be an interesting scenario, but it's not really a proper "dungeon" in the original D&D sense. Avoiding needless combats is a key strategy in the traditional dungeon. You've got (or ought to have!) a goal, and you've got limited resources.</p><p></p><p>The map for such a scenario is very important. It needs plenty of branching decision points, with interconnections providing a large number of possible paths through it -- and at the same time, "choke points" and separate branches that make the choices significant. Most of the time, there should be at least two immediate options besides retracing one's steps (and obviously a growing number as one considers further branchings).</p><p></p><p>A compact "module" may be more "packed" with encounters than a full-scale campaign dungeon, but monsters should still occupy only a minority of the locations. In the original scheme, they were to be found in only a third of the rooms. About half the areas would be "empty" in the sense of offering neither great peril nor great treasure -- but they could still have interesting features to explore. Their main purpose was to facilitate players' maneuvering to scout, bypass traps or gain advantage for an attack, or escape pursuers. The remaining areas would include puzzles, traps and tricks.</p><p></p><p>Besides the "ordinary" regions described above, there would be areas with great treasures -- the strategic objectives of players. Those should be challenging to find and reach, and present the really tough fights. Those fights are likely to be hard to avoid, if one wants the treasure -- but not impossible for cunning players to bypass.</p><p></p><p>Secret ways are an important feature of the traditional dungeon. Clues or items found in one place (or several) might open opportunities elsewhere for those who acquire and understand them.</p><p></p><p>It should be possible to parley with at least some dungeon inhabitants. Par for the course, there are factions of whose rivalry players can take advantage. Things of appropriate value might be traded for information or even material assistance.</p><p></p><p>In short, a "dungeon" that amounts to little more than a gauntlet of combats is not truly worthy of the name in classic <em>Dungeons & Dragons</em> terms.</p><p></p><p>The 4E game provides for very engaging combats, and it is understandable that some people might wish largely to dispense with the other aspects of D&D play. I would hope that Wizards of the Coast would recognize, though, that such a narrow focus is not satisfying to many others -- perhaps to the majority of people attracted by the promise of "adventure".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ariosto, post: 4819216, member: 80487"] What's odd to me is that the characterization is at odds with the principles of the traditional D&D dungeon. Is every dungeon expedition a "crawl", or is that term being used to distinguish poorly designed dungeons from well designed ones? [B]"The players move from combat to combat with little or no chance to make any meaningful choices other than how they are going to kill the current and/or next group of baddies." [/B]Assaulting a well defended fortress can be an interesting scenario, but it's not really a proper "dungeon" in the original D&D sense. Avoiding needless combats is a key strategy in the traditional dungeon. You've got (or ought to have!) a goal, and you've got limited resources. The map for such a scenario is very important. It needs plenty of branching decision points, with interconnections providing a large number of possible paths through it -- and at the same time, "choke points" and separate branches that make the choices significant. Most of the time, there should be at least two immediate options besides retracing one's steps (and obviously a growing number as one considers further branchings). A compact "module" may be more "packed" with encounters than a full-scale campaign dungeon, but monsters should still occupy only a minority of the locations. In the original scheme, they were to be found in only a third of the rooms. About half the areas would be "empty" in the sense of offering neither great peril nor great treasure -- but they could still have interesting features to explore. Their main purpose was to facilitate players' maneuvering to scout, bypass traps or gain advantage for an attack, or escape pursuers. The remaining areas would include puzzles, traps and tricks. Besides the "ordinary" regions described above, there would be areas with great treasures -- the strategic objectives of players. Those should be challenging to find and reach, and present the really tough fights. Those fights are likely to be hard to avoid, if one wants the treasure -- but not impossible for cunning players to bypass. Secret ways are an important feature of the traditional dungeon. Clues or items found in one place (or several) might open opportunities elsewhere for those who acquire and understand them. It should be possible to parley with at least some dungeon inhabitants. Par for the course, there are factions of whose rivalry players can take advantage. Things of appropriate value might be traded for information or even material assistance. In short, a "dungeon" that amounts to little more than a gauntlet of combats is not truly worthy of the name in classic [I]Dungeons & Dragons[/I] terms. The 4E game provides for very engaging combats, and it is understandable that some people might wish largely to dispense with the other aspects of D&D play. I would hope that Wizards of the Coast would recognize, though, that such a narrow focus is not satisfying to many others -- perhaps to the majority of people attracted by the promise of "adventure". [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Adventures that are NOT dungeon crawls.
Top