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Advice for Caves of Chaos/B2
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<blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 7284568" data-attributes="member: 45197"><p>Hiya!</p><p></p><p>OK, Celebrim, don't take this the wrong way. What I'm noticing is that with older style modules, like this one, it fits with the older style DM'ing...and it flies in the face of most/many of the newer style DM'ing ways. Basically, it's a comment on just how different your ideas of what is a "good DM'ing adventure" and what my ideas of what is a "good DM'ing adventure". <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> I think others reading this thread may want a different take on it...so here I am! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do! Definitely DO! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> The fact that plate armour wearing PC's can be nigh impossible for most foes to hit is not a flaw. When you buy/get plate mail (as it is called in the game), you are trading off movement/weight for protection. From my experience with B/X or BECMI D&D (and even 1e), one or two 'front line' fighters should try and get some plate mail. Everyone else should stick to medium or light. I can't tell you how many times I've had one fighter in Plate go down next to his buddy, also in Plate, and then have the buddy have to leave his friend to die because he can't just pick up 350 lb's and run away. Moral of the story: If you are in plate mail and go down...don't expect to be surviving if the bad guy/s are still up. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>As for cinematic...BECMI and 1e aren't really based around "cinematic" combat. They are more based on "very rough approximation of realism...with a heroic sprinkling". In 1e, a Fighter could attack a number of less-than-1HD creatures per round equal to his level. So a 7th level fighter against a bunch of goblins would get 7 attacks PER ROUND against them. Add another fighter, stick them both in plate mail and, well, there's your "heroic sprinkling". <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>But this doesn't really pertain directly to B2, and more to the systems in question. Lets continue.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>Ahhh! Here is the crux of diversion between your style and mine. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Y'see, IMHO and IME, a "very experienced and competent DM" is one who learned how to add tones to a module. He/She is one who DID add massive backstories, evil bad guys, insidious cults, spies, assassins, and spent ample hours fleshing out all that "boring stuff the PC's may never encounter". Again, IMHO, B2 is the <strong>perfect</strong> module for beginning DM's as it encourages them to do just that. And, in doing that over the course of weeks, months and years...they become those very same "experienced and competent" DM's. </p><p></p><p>With my style, B2 is what I put up as the best, most 'perfect' adventure module for D&D ever written (although Kenzer & Co's "Little Keep on the Borderlands" gives it a VERY good run for it's money!). Back in ye olden days, a DM was <em>required</em> to do all that adding, tweaking, and adjusting. That was the core "job" of being a DM. So, where you see B2's, shall we say, "sparce" detailings as a failure, I see them as a rousing success!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Back to style preference...and, seeing the small paragraph below, maybe how we both learned to DM. Again, the DM is the one who gets to decide whatever he/she wants to be the "logical goal" of the caves inhabitants. I've run no less than 3 entire campaigns using B2. Each campaign lasted between one and almost three years. Yes, YEARS of actual time. Basically, I've spent roughly 5 years of my DM'ing career running campaigns using B2 (I've been DM'ing for about...hmmm...38'ish years I guess). In fact, B2 was my "learning module" back in '81.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ahhh...I didn't learn from anyone. I was self-taught....like pretty much every single DM at that time (1981). There was no internet in those days, and most people didn't have a PC. It was read, trial, error, read, fix/adjust, rinse and repeat. So with that in mind, B2 was perfect for beginning DM's as it gave us SOMETHING to start with. It gave us a small safe area, some NPC's for more RP'ing sessions, a small but varied wilderness area to wander around in and hide "long lost temples" or "ruined towers" or whatever. It gave us a multitude of dungeons, roughly linked together in that dreadful box canyon. It gave us hints at what some of the caves inhabitants might be up to or wanting (or what they didn't want). It gave us nudges towards developing more in-depth plots, story lines and all that 'behind the scenes' stuff that a DM could either happily ignore, or run with and embellish. </p><p></p><p>Basically, B2 taught you how to DM by making you DM...not by telling you exactly what to do and having everything planned out for you. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Perfect module, imnsho.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd argue that what you get out of B2 is exactly what you put into it. Kind of like virtually everything else in life. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> I put LOTS of work into it...three different times. Each of those 1 to 3 year campaigns was different from the other. Each one could be transcribed into a novel (or novels), and other than names and the general layout of the area, each would be a unique and interesting story.</p><p></p><p>Taking B2, delving up to your elbows in it and making it your own is <em>exactly</em> the kind of modules we need nowadays. Too many young'ish DM's, imho, get rattled when the players do something completely unusual simply because most adventures (and almost all Adventure Paths) expect a logical progression of the prescribed 'story'. If more modules were "skeletons" and less "fully formed personas", I think we'd have a lot more DM's who don't get the cold sweats when they are DM'ing "The Savage Tide" and hear the PC's say "Hey! Why doesn't Brad the Beautiful Bard run for Mayor of Farshore? He's a shoe in! With a Charisma of 20 and all his skill focuses and what not...it'd be OUR town then! Lets do that!". ( <--- actually happened when we played Savage Tide; DM had to totally and unabashedly cheat us...because the adventure assumes that someone else becomes Mayor).</p><p></p><p>At any rate...style and preference here I think. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> I LOVE B2 and, as we just started a new B/X D&D campaign a couple weeks ago, I'm pretty sure yet ANOTHER B2 campaign is in the very near future! Who knows what I'll come up with this time? And...isn't that part of the whole "imagination" thing that RPG's are built for? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>^_^</p><p></p><p>Paul L. Ming</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pming, post: 7284568, member: 45197"] Hiya! OK, Celebrim, don't take this the wrong way. What I'm noticing is that with older style modules, like this one, it fits with the older style DM'ing...and it flies in the face of most/many of the newer style DM'ing ways. Basically, it's a comment on just how different your ideas of what is a "good DM'ing adventure" and what my ideas of what is a "good DM'ing adventure". :) I think others reading this thread may want a different take on it...so here I am! ;) Do! Definitely DO! :) The fact that plate armour wearing PC's can be nigh impossible for most foes to hit is not a flaw. When you buy/get plate mail (as it is called in the game), you are trading off movement/weight for protection. From my experience with B/X or BECMI D&D (and even 1e), one or two 'front line' fighters should try and get some plate mail. Everyone else should stick to medium or light. I can't tell you how many times I've had one fighter in Plate go down next to his buddy, also in Plate, and then have the buddy have to leave his friend to die because he can't just pick up 350 lb's and run away. Moral of the story: If you are in plate mail and go down...don't expect to be surviving if the bad guy/s are still up. :) As for cinematic...BECMI and 1e aren't really based around "cinematic" combat. They are more based on "very rough approximation of realism...with a heroic sprinkling". In 1e, a Fighter could attack a number of less-than-1HD creatures per round equal to his level. So a 7th level fighter against a bunch of goblins would get 7 attacks PER ROUND against them. Add another fighter, stick them both in plate mail and, well, there's your "heroic sprinkling". ;) But this doesn't really pertain directly to B2, and more to the systems in question. Lets continue. Ahhh! Here is the crux of diversion between your style and mine. :) Y'see, IMHO and IME, a "very experienced and competent DM" is one who learned how to add tones to a module. He/She is one who DID add massive backstories, evil bad guys, insidious cults, spies, assassins, and spent ample hours fleshing out all that "boring stuff the PC's may never encounter". Again, IMHO, B2 is the [B]perfect[/B] module for beginning DM's as it encourages them to do just that. And, in doing that over the course of weeks, months and years...they become those very same "experienced and competent" DM's. With my style, B2 is what I put up as the best, most 'perfect' adventure module for D&D ever written (although Kenzer & Co's "Little Keep on the Borderlands" gives it a VERY good run for it's money!). Back in ye olden days, a DM was [I]required[/I] to do all that adding, tweaking, and adjusting. That was the core "job" of being a DM. So, where you see B2's, shall we say, "sparce" detailings as a failure, I see them as a rousing success! Back to style preference...and, seeing the small paragraph below, maybe how we both learned to DM. Again, the DM is the one who gets to decide whatever he/she wants to be the "logical goal" of the caves inhabitants. I've run no less than 3 entire campaigns using B2. Each campaign lasted between one and almost three years. Yes, YEARS of actual time. Basically, I've spent roughly 5 years of my DM'ing career running campaigns using B2 (I've been DM'ing for about...hmmm...38'ish years I guess). In fact, B2 was my "learning module" back in '81. Ahhh...I didn't learn from anyone. I was self-taught....like pretty much every single DM at that time (1981). There was no internet in those days, and most people didn't have a PC. It was read, trial, error, read, fix/adjust, rinse and repeat. So with that in mind, B2 was perfect for beginning DM's as it gave us SOMETHING to start with. It gave us a small safe area, some NPC's for more RP'ing sessions, a small but varied wilderness area to wander around in and hide "long lost temples" or "ruined towers" or whatever. It gave us a multitude of dungeons, roughly linked together in that dreadful box canyon. It gave us hints at what some of the caves inhabitants might be up to or wanting (or what they didn't want). It gave us nudges towards developing more in-depth plots, story lines and all that 'behind the scenes' stuff that a DM could either happily ignore, or run with and embellish. Basically, B2 taught you how to DM by making you DM...not by telling you exactly what to do and having everything planned out for you. :) Perfect module, imnsho. I'd argue that what you get out of B2 is exactly what you put into it. Kind of like virtually everything else in life. :) I put LOTS of work into it...three different times. Each of those 1 to 3 year campaigns was different from the other. Each one could be transcribed into a novel (or novels), and other than names and the general layout of the area, each would be a unique and interesting story. Taking B2, delving up to your elbows in it and making it your own is [I]exactly[/I] the kind of modules we need nowadays. Too many young'ish DM's, imho, get rattled when the players do something completely unusual simply because most adventures (and almost all Adventure Paths) expect a logical progression of the prescribed 'story'. If more modules were "skeletons" and less "fully formed personas", I think we'd have a lot more DM's who don't get the cold sweats when they are DM'ing "The Savage Tide" and hear the PC's say "Hey! Why doesn't Brad the Beautiful Bard run for Mayor of Farshore? He's a shoe in! With a Charisma of 20 and all his skill focuses and what not...it'd be OUR town then! Lets do that!". ( <--- actually happened when we played Savage Tide; DM had to totally and unabashedly cheat us...because the adventure assumes that someone else becomes Mayor). At any rate...style and preference here I think. :) I LOVE B2 and, as we just started a new B/X D&D campaign a couple weeks ago, I'm pretty sure yet ANOTHER B2 campaign is in the very near future! Who knows what I'll come up with this time? And...isn't that part of the whole "imagination" thing that RPG's are built for? ;) ^_^ Paul L. Ming [/QUOTE]
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