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Advice for Caves of Chaos/B2
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<blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 7288154" data-attributes="member: 45197"><p>Hiya!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I still think I generally get what you are saying...it's just that we disagree on it.</p><p>If you are saying "The module doesn't help the fledgeling DM design new wilderness areas because there is no talk of it, nor is there a table or two, nor is there any guidelines on what creatures should/could be in what terrain"...which I think you are...then <em>I AGREE WITH YOU.</em> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> However...in my experience and in my view, having a rough drawn wilderness map with 4 "encounter areas" and a lot of empty space is just BETTER at teaching someone how to "make stuff up" in regards to being a DM. When a newbie DM is asked to do so, and immediately asks him/her self "How?", they will likely do what I did. Look at the rule book, look at the module, extrapolate from there, play the game. As the game progresses the DM will encounter situations that simply are not covered anywhere (rules or module). The DM then takes what little knowledge they have and adjudicates the situation. Rinse, repeat. After a year or so the DM should have enough confidence and capability to run a game completely "on the fly". The DM will run his/her game with his/her particular style. I ran the game different than my friend Chris, and we both ran the game different than my father did. All three of us, however, had learned 'how to DM'.</p><p></p><p>As I said...I do think I get where you are coming from. I just disagree with your assessment of what is the best way to teach someone how to DM. My preference is very much a 'toss him into the deep end'. Yours seems to be a more step-by-step progression of examples. And, I just think the whole 'toss him into the deep end' approach just works FAR better for teaching someone how to DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>OK, thanks for the reminder. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> I wasn't thinking of the module in regards to all that had/was out. My bad. However, with the Moldvay box set, it came with B2 (iirc, after the first printing? not sure on that...it was a while ago after all! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> ). And, if someone was going to learn DM'ing with B2 or with Rahasia...imho, B2 is the better choice due in large part to its distinct lack of "specific story". Again...I think we just disagree with what is a better teaching method for new DM's.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And I say that yes, it does. It does NOT "hold your hand" and explain every thing. I contend that is a <em>good thing!</em> It "teaches" a DM to <em>think</em> about stuff in a more broader "campaign as a whole" way than a "logical story progression for this single adventure" way. </p><p></p><p>But, as I said many times before...I think we just disagree on what is a 'good' way to teach someone how to DM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would say 'just read my last sentence above again'. It <em>does</em> teach how to invent and expand on a setting, but it does so in a way you disagree with. It presents a small little micro-cosm of civilization and wilderness. This is an example. This example is intended to be used by a new DM to do that inventing and expanding. As the DM does that inventing and expanding, he/she <em>will</em> run into things that have them scratching their heads.To me, this is a <em>good thing</em>. It is not a failing, it is a strength. It forces a DM to make decisions based on their own understanding up to that point. All of these decisions...for good or bad...is the very meat of "how to DM".</p><p></p><p>I do agree that some of the advice isn't very good (the whole "give the PC's potions of healing...a gift from a family member" thing just does NOT work out in the long run!). But the majority of the advice and module is good...from my POV at any rate.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The part you are referring to is on page 12, "Adventures Outside the Keep". The beginning of that section sets the scope; "Naturally, they will be trying to find the Caves of Chaos, but this will take some travelling...". If the goal of the players (and the DM) for that session is to find the Caves of Chaos, then sure...go for it. What I learned from this was simple: It's a game, so if everyone wants to delve into the dungeons, and they start to wander off the map...just tell them so. "Guys, you're going off the map if you keep heading east". That is the best and most effective way of "not wasting time" when everyone wants to find the caves and go into them. Of course, it's also appropriate for the DM to just hand wave the wondering and say "After four days of travel and searching, you find the caves...here...[marks on map]".</p><p></p><p>In this regard, again, I agree with you that it could have been better handled. It still works just fine though, even if you use the examples given "A talking magpie says: Caves of the Beast, head to the East, eerRRAAWKKK". Some DM's will keep using this and it will become normal for their group. Other DM's won't like it and will find other methods.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think we are going to be able to talk about this successfully either. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite3" alt=":(" title="Frown :(" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":(" /> I don't know how you DM. I'm telling you how I DM and how I learned to DM and that I think learning how to DM the way I learned to DM is a good, solid, and superior way to learn the craft. As I've been trying to say...<em>NO,</em></p><p> <em>B2 does not, in fact, tell you how to do X, Y and Z</em>! But you claiming that because it doesn't explain how to do X, Y and Z that it is somehow "bad" at teaching someone how to DM just doesn't make sense to me.</p><p></p><p>Teaching me how to disarm a grenade? YES! I most definitely want a "Do X, then do Y, then do Z". Teaching me how to paint a bowl of fruit? NO! I most definitely DO NOT want a "Do X, then do Y, then do Z". ... ... Obviously I see the whole "teaching" and "learning" of how to be a good and effective Dungeon Master as more of an Art than of a Science.</p><p></p><p>^_^</p><p></p><p>Paul L. Ming</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pming, post: 7288154, member: 45197"] Hiya! I still think I generally get what you are saying...it's just that we disagree on it. If you are saying "The module doesn't help the fledgeling DM design new wilderness areas because there is no talk of it, nor is there a table or two, nor is there any guidelines on what creatures should/could be in what terrain"...which I think you are...then [I]I AGREE WITH YOU.[/I] :) However...in my experience and in my view, having a rough drawn wilderness map with 4 "encounter areas" and a lot of empty space is just BETTER at teaching someone how to "make stuff up" in regards to being a DM. When a newbie DM is asked to do so, and immediately asks him/her self "How?", they will likely do what I did. Look at the rule book, look at the module, extrapolate from there, play the game. As the game progresses the DM will encounter situations that simply are not covered anywhere (rules or module). The DM then takes what little knowledge they have and adjudicates the situation. Rinse, repeat. After a year or so the DM should have enough confidence and capability to run a game completely "on the fly". The DM will run his/her game with his/her particular style. I ran the game different than my friend Chris, and we both ran the game different than my father did. All three of us, however, had learned 'how to DM'. As I said...I do think I get where you are coming from. I just disagree with your assessment of what is the best way to teach someone how to DM. My preference is very much a 'toss him into the deep end'. Yours seems to be a more step-by-step progression of examples. And, I just think the whole 'toss him into the deep end' approach just works FAR better for teaching someone how to DM. OK, thanks for the reminder. :) I wasn't thinking of the module in regards to all that had/was out. My bad. However, with the Moldvay box set, it came with B2 (iirc, after the first printing? not sure on that...it was a while ago after all! :) ). And, if someone was going to learn DM'ing with B2 or with Rahasia...imho, B2 is the better choice due in large part to its distinct lack of "specific story". Again...I think we just disagree with what is a better teaching method for new DM's. And I say that yes, it does. It does NOT "hold your hand" and explain every thing. I contend that is a [I]good thing![/I] It "teaches" a DM to [I]think[/I] about stuff in a more broader "campaign as a whole" way than a "logical story progression for this single adventure" way. But, as I said many times before...I think we just disagree on what is a 'good' way to teach someone how to DM. I would say 'just read my last sentence above again'. It [I]does[/I] teach how to invent and expand on a setting, but it does so in a way you disagree with. It presents a small little micro-cosm of civilization and wilderness. This is an example. This example is intended to be used by a new DM to do that inventing and expanding. As the DM does that inventing and expanding, he/she [I]will[/I] run into things that have them scratching their heads.To me, this is a [I]good thing[/I]. It is not a failing, it is a strength. It forces a DM to make decisions based on their own understanding up to that point. All of these decisions...for good or bad...is the very meat of "how to DM". I do agree that some of the advice isn't very good (the whole "give the PC's potions of healing...a gift from a family member" thing just does NOT work out in the long run!). But the majority of the advice and module is good...from my POV at any rate. The part you are referring to is on page 12, "Adventures Outside the Keep". The beginning of that section sets the scope; "Naturally, they will be trying to find the Caves of Chaos, but this will take some travelling...". If the goal of the players (and the DM) for that session is to find the Caves of Chaos, then sure...go for it. What I learned from this was simple: It's a game, so if everyone wants to delve into the dungeons, and they start to wander off the map...just tell them so. "Guys, you're going off the map if you keep heading east". That is the best and most effective way of "not wasting time" when everyone wants to find the caves and go into them. Of course, it's also appropriate for the DM to just hand wave the wondering and say "After four days of travel and searching, you find the caves...here...[marks on map]". In this regard, again, I agree with you that it could have been better handled. It still works just fine though, even if you use the examples given "A talking magpie says: Caves of the Beast, head to the East, eerRRAAWKKK". Some DM's will keep using this and it will become normal for their group. Other DM's won't like it and will find other methods. I don't think we are going to be able to talk about this successfully either. :( I don't know how you DM. I'm telling you how I DM and how I learned to DM and that I think learning how to DM the way I learned to DM is a good, solid, and superior way to learn the craft. As I've been trying to say...[I]NO, B2 does not, in fact, tell you how to do X, Y and Z[/I]! But you claiming that because it doesn't explain how to do X, Y and Z that it is somehow "bad" at teaching someone how to DM just doesn't make sense to me. Teaching me how to disarm a grenade? YES! I most definitely want a "Do X, then do Y, then do Z". Teaching me how to paint a bowl of fruit? NO! I most definitely DO NOT want a "Do X, then do Y, then do Z". ... ... Obviously I see the whole "teaching" and "learning" of how to be a good and effective Dungeon Master as more of an Art than of a Science. ^_^ Paul L. Ming [/QUOTE]
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