Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Advice for Caves of Chaos/B2
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7299097" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>No, absolutely not. The point is that they aren't choices at all. Two identical doors in a room one of which leads to certain death, when the party has no resources to know which door is right is not a choice. And you don't get to see "the consequences of your action" in that case even if you somehow live because there is no lesson to be learned here. A completely random choice leading to completely arbitrary death is not offering player's meaningful choices. </p><p></p><p>By contrast, Gygax's infamous Green Devil face is a choice. That door is gives you reason to have pause and consider your actions closely before attempting them. And it offers the prospect of scouting, such as using a 10' pole to try to observe the behavior that can inform your choice. It punishes you for going forward blindly, but it gives you the possibility of doing something else. </p><p></p><p>In the Caves of Chaos, every door is a blind choice and new players have no way of knowing which is the right choice (for their character level) until they stumble into them. Gygax isn't actually even offering them a choice. He's counting on them making the obvious choice at first and then once they've leveled up they might get more freedom, and he's counting on the DM to steer them into the 'correct' choice if early on they are making the 'wrong' one. For example, regardless of how you get to the Caves and from what direction you first approach them, the intro text pushes the DM to read the passage as if the PC's arrived at the mouth of the canyon on the east side and are facing west. But at that point they have no basis for making a choice at all, and if they TPK what are they supposed to learn: that they are to read the DM's mind?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No tracks are provided in the text, and there are no characters (like Rangers) called out with the ability to track. Nor are their any hunting parties. None of the text calls out the canyon as being alive in any fashion. There is one random encounter with goblins that happens one time IIRC, and that's the extent of it. The encounters are written statically, with ever present guards ready to set up ambushes and summon the 12-20 minions that live continually in each lair. And sure, an experienced DM might imagine all the things that you mention, but this is supposed to be an introductory text, and besides which, an experienced DM probably could create better than this. Heck, an experienced DM can make a more interesting dungeon using the random dungeon generator in the appendix of the DMG.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7299097, member: 4937"] No, absolutely not. The point is that they aren't choices at all. Two identical doors in a room one of which leads to certain death, when the party has no resources to know which door is right is not a choice. And you don't get to see "the consequences of your action" in that case even if you somehow live because there is no lesson to be learned here. A completely random choice leading to completely arbitrary death is not offering player's meaningful choices. By contrast, Gygax's infamous Green Devil face is a choice. That door is gives you reason to have pause and consider your actions closely before attempting them. And it offers the prospect of scouting, such as using a 10' pole to try to observe the behavior that can inform your choice. It punishes you for going forward blindly, but it gives you the possibility of doing something else. In the Caves of Chaos, every door is a blind choice and new players have no way of knowing which is the right choice (for their character level) until they stumble into them. Gygax isn't actually even offering them a choice. He's counting on them making the obvious choice at first and then once they've leveled up they might get more freedom, and he's counting on the DM to steer them into the 'correct' choice if early on they are making the 'wrong' one. For example, regardless of how you get to the Caves and from what direction you first approach them, the intro text pushes the DM to read the passage as if the PC's arrived at the mouth of the canyon on the east side and are facing west. But at that point they have no basis for making a choice at all, and if they TPK what are they supposed to learn: that they are to read the DM's mind? No tracks are provided in the text, and there are no characters (like Rangers) called out with the ability to track. Nor are their any hunting parties. None of the text calls out the canyon as being alive in any fashion. There is one random encounter with goblins that happens one time IIRC, and that's the extent of it. The encounters are written statically, with ever present guards ready to set up ambushes and summon the 12-20 minions that live continually in each lair. And sure, an experienced DM might imagine all the things that you mention, but this is supposed to be an introductory text, and besides which, an experienced DM probably could create better than this. Heck, an experienced DM can make a more interesting dungeon using the random dungeon generator in the appendix of the DMG. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Advice for Caves of Chaos/B2
Top