Aid Another counts as Flanking

[JimAde]

Sounds good. You're right that it could be interpreted as a total +4 the way I wrote it.

 

[sfedi]

I haven't answered yet because I was a little confused by what you wrote, and the possible mistakes I've made phrasing it.

The idea is that in addition to providing a +2 bonus, the ally you are helping, can make a Sneak attack.

That's the whole point of this rule.

And as was previously noted, you are not supposed to provide an extra +2 due to flanking. That should only be attainable by getting into the proper position.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Okay I understand now.

Hmm, the +2 to melee attacks is built into the "flanking" condition. Do you want to keep the +2 bonus that you normally get with aiding another, but leave out the +2 bonus from flanking? You could finagle it by wording it such that you don't get the +2 bonus, that way you wouldn't have to get into modifying the flanking ruling.

Something like...

When Aiding Another in melee, you may forgo the normal +2 bonus to attack given to your ally. When you do this, you can instead cause the opponent to be considered flanked by said ally.

Or something along those lines.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I think its easier to leave the options at:

Aid other with melee attack provides either +2 to attack, +2 to AC, or provides flanking {per above verbage}.
This way you don't confuse anyone by having flanking do something different than it usually does. Since flanking already includes a +2 to hit, we don't need to add it in the Aid Other section.

I think we are in agreeance with what the mechanci should do.. just having a hard time with the wording so that other people will know what we mean it to do

 

[sfedi]

You are right Primitive Screwhead (PS).
And for simplicity's sake, I'd keep PS's wording/ruling.

 

[Cheiromancer]

So, under current rules, if you have ally A at your side, and ally B on the opposite side of the opponent from you, then B flanks the enemy and thus gets a +2 to attack, can sneak attack him, and so on. If you successfully use the Aid Another on A, you could grant him a +2 to attack or a +2 to AC; B still flanks the opponent.

Am I correct so far with the RAW?

Assuming the answer is yes, then the proposed rule would allow you to make A flank the opponent; he gets +2 to hit and can use sneak attacks. I assume B still gets the flanking bonus- both your allies are flanking the opponent, instead of just B, but you have to give up your attack (and hit AC 10).

In other words, you are just powering up the first option of aid another; instead of getting merely a +2 to attack, he can also sneak attack.

Is this correct? If so, what happens if your opponent has improved uncanny dodge and so cannot be flanked? Does A still get a +2 to attack?

 

[sfedi]

So, under current rules, if you have ally A at your side, and ally B on the opposite side of the opponent from you, then B flanks the enemy and thus gets a +2 to attack, can sneak attack him, and so on. If you successfully use the Aid Another on A, you could grant him a +2 to attack or a +2 to AC; B still flanks the opponent.

Am I correct so far with the RAW?

Assuming the answer is yes, then the proposed rule would allow you to make A flank the opponent; he gets +2 to hit and can use sneak attacks. I assume B still gets the flanking bonus- both your allies are flanking the opponent, instead of just B, but you have to give up your attack (and hit AC 10).

I didn't understand the above.
Could you make a diagram in ASCII (using de /code tag)?

In other words, you are just powering up the first option of aid another; instead of getting merely a +2 to attack, he can also sneak attack.

Yes, that's the spirit.

Is this correct? If so, what happens if your opponent has improved uncanny dodge and so cannot be flanked? Does A still get a +2 to attack?

If he can't get flanked, then Aid Another can do nothing about it.
Under the origianl spirit and wording of the rule, yes, he would still get the +2.
But with the latest interpretation (the simpler one Primitive Screwhead posted) he would loose the +2.
Note that this would happen only once, since after you notice that your opponent has improved uncanny dodge, you won't choose the option of giving flanking.

Oddly, the main problem we have is conveying the rule in a simple way.

 

[akchf]

I like the idea of offering flanking bonuses to aid another, it's far too weak as written. I've house ruled that if the aiding person rolls >10 they get +2 and +1 for every increment of 5 over that..

 

[sfedi]

New Feat

I like the idea of offering flanking bonuses to aid another, it's far too weak as written. I've house ruled that if the aiding person rolls >10 they get +2 and +1 for every increment of 5 over that..

In that case, I can offer you a Feat of my own device:

Improved Aid Another [General]
Prerequisites: base attack bonus +1 or higher, any one feat from the following list: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Expertise, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ride-By Attack, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus.
Benefit: You can perform the Aid Another action as an attack instead of as a standard action. If you choose to make the Aid Another as a standard action, the circumstance bonus is increased to your BAB divided by 2 (minimum of +4) and you don’t need to hit AC 10.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

In melee combat, you can help a friend attack or defend by distracting or interfering with an opponent. If you’re in position to make a melee attack on an opponent that is engaging a friend in melee combat, you can attempt to aid your friend as a standard action. You make an attack roll against AC 10. If you succeed, your friend gains either a +2 bonus on his next attack roll against that opponent or a +2 bonus to AC against that opponent’s next attack, or is treated as if flanking the opponent (your choice), as long as that attack comes before the beginning of your next turn. Multiple characters can aid the same friend, and similar bonuses stack.

When the option to provide a flanking bonus is chosen, you cannot also provide a normal flanking bonus to another ally until your next turn. All other rules on flanking apply as normal.

You can also use this standard action to help a friend in other ways, such as when he is affected by a hypnotism spell or a sleep spell, or to assist another character’s skill check

The general idea is to have 3 options:
> Add +2 to hit
> Add +2 to AC
> Add +2 to hit and allow for Sneak Attacks

This will make the Aid Another melee action more desireable by PC's. As it stands, the only time I see Aid Another in combat is when a horde of little guys needs to take down the PC Fighter...