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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7497937" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Whoa. You should climb down off that high horse lest you fall. Incoherent? No, sir, no such admission. I thonk knowledge skills are incoherent. Roll to remember? Nah. Incorporating them into active use (approach and goal) is challenging because of how 5e built them like 3e knowledge checks. I already purpose them to discover things -- ie, history lets you more easily discover knowledge while examining historical records or artifacts. Arcana is used to manipulate arcane energies ir discover things about arcane effects like magical traps. Religion lets you successfully lead prayers, which can grant effects based on congregation size (solves how non-cleric priest can hallow ground, for instance). And so on. What I have trouble with is reconciling the "I remember stuff" part.</p><p></p><p>As for the contest of deception vs insight, my example was discovering the source of nervousness, not an attempt to expise falsehood. I'll be glad to answer your questoon on how I'd handle that, but you should ask me instead of assuming my answer. Asking piercing questions to uncover a falsehood is not inobvious (approach and goal). A success, however, would mean that you tripped up the deceiver and everyone is now aware of the falsehood. A failure means you've embarrassed yourself and those around now firmly believe the lie or that the liar now has a superior position in the discussion. At no point would the result require the PC to believe anything.</p><p></p><p>Further, the assumption, based on nothing I can see, that I impose failure on players arbitrarily. Nothing is further from the truth. I make stakes explicit and, even more, overshare information. I'll quite often straight out tell the players that the NPC is lying because the challenge isn't to see if the players find out about the lie, but what they do about it. The suggestion that I'd have my players guess if I'm lying is outlandish, and nothing I've ever said on this forum should give you that idea unless your assuming things I'm not saying.</p><p></p><p>This misunderstanding is on you. You've assumed rather than asked; insulted rather than clarify. I'd like to continue a cordial discussion, regardless, if you think you could refrain from this in the future.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7497937, member: 16814"] Whoa. You should climb down off that high horse lest you fall. Incoherent? No, sir, no such admission. I thonk knowledge skills are incoherent. Roll to remember? Nah. Incorporating them into active use (approach and goal) is challenging because of how 5e built them like 3e knowledge checks. I already purpose them to discover things -- ie, history lets you more easily discover knowledge while examining historical records or artifacts. Arcana is used to manipulate arcane energies ir discover things about arcane effects like magical traps. Religion lets you successfully lead prayers, which can grant effects based on congregation size (solves how non-cleric priest can hallow ground, for instance). And so on. What I have trouble with is reconciling the "I remember stuff" part. As for the contest of deception vs insight, my example was discovering the source of nervousness, not an attempt to expise falsehood. I'll be glad to answer your questoon on how I'd handle that, but you should ask me instead of assuming my answer. Asking piercing questions to uncover a falsehood is not inobvious (approach and goal). A success, however, would mean that you tripped up the deceiver and everyone is now aware of the falsehood. A failure means you've embarrassed yourself and those around now firmly believe the lie or that the liar now has a superior position in the discussion. At no point would the result require the PC to believe anything. Further, the assumption, based on nothing I can see, that I impose failure on players arbitrarily. Nothing is further from the truth. I make stakes explicit and, even more, overshare information. I'll quite often straight out tell the players that the NPC is lying because the challenge isn't to see if the players find out about the lie, but what they do about it. The suggestion that I'd have my players guess if I'm lying is outlandish, and nothing I've ever said on this forum should give you that idea unless your assuming things I'm not saying. This misunderstanding is on you. You've assumed rather than asked; insulted rather than clarify. I'd like to continue a cordial discussion, regardless, if you think you could refrain from this in the future. [/QUOTE]
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