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Anyone else annoyed at Wizards lack of Minion summoners?
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7297479" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>So as i think back to older editions and try to get a sense of what you are meaning behind the language, it seems like you are missing the option to summon "normal creatures" as in an olde Summon Monster that popped up goblins or such as contrasted to the current focus on summons as dealing almost certainly with more exo-planar creatures.</p><p></p><p>if that is not it and you want or were referencing and you just want more summon good spirit kinds of stuff, sorry.</p><p></p><p>To my way of thinking, the current model pretty much sets the bar at summons calls things from other realms, not just normal folks from this realm. The exception is of course things like druid natural summoning but that is clearly almost more of a sense of "call animal" and a representation of their ties to nature.</p><p></p><p>For myself, I like this notion and distinction and think it sets a good more solid conceptual basis. Ye Olde "PCs summoned by a goblin shaman" debates being an example of the issues involved with allowing pretty non-specific summoning of more normal worldly denizens. I also do like linking the various teleport into the mix as well because of the similarity between bridging to bring a creature here and the manifestation of teleport. </p><p></p><p>So, if your argument is about wanting to summon neutral or good outsiders, i would suggest simply allowing the creation of or the </p><p>GM fiat of "a more generic approach to the existing spells.</p><p></p><p>Simply replace the "demon" or "infernal" with "outsiders" and allow the caster to set the "base alignment" of the creature types the Gm will drawn on.</p><p></p><p>There are, however, pitfalls that should be watched out for in expanding broadly the available summoning lists.</p><p></p><p>PITFALL... if you uses this as a way of adjusting the creature's reactions away from the types of reactions and control listed with the specific spells, that would be a red flag to me. As i look at the spells, their breakdown by level is as much or more about the type of control and interaction than it is the flavor of beastie. So if someone wanted to replace Summer lesser demon at 3rd with summon lesser "angel" (or whatever LG would be) and then argue they would be friendly to the caster and his LG allies, i would see that as a no-no.</p><p></p><p>PITFALL - if this was worked to be more of a "summon different powers" than "summon different allies to fight for me" because often "good" aligned creatures can have more healing or protective than offensive slashy bits, so that this could turn into a powerful, lower level mass heal out of combat, I would also view that as a red flag no-no bad faith effort. One of the more obvious cases would be say a low CR "good" outsiders which had an at will healing - even small - which might turn a 3rd level summons into a "heal whole party after fight" in addition to its use as a "summon minir beastie to scratch up enemies."</p><p></p><p>PITFALL - i would also make sure the lack of control over specific summon type was kept in line with the existing spells. That avoids again a "swiss army knife" scope increase by allowing the caster to summon creatures fitted to a specific tactic or need even in combat. of hand, grappling comes to mind as something where for combat a simple "dial-a-varmint" could really enable a potency beyond the level of the spell aspect to creep in from a significant scope increase.</p><p></p><p>At various times, in various editions, in various other games... it sometimes turned out that "more expansive summoning" ended up being morphed into a "swiss army knife" catch-all do-all utility "spell set" that gave an overly broad set of capabilities for rather low investment and expense. having seen that in play, i appreciate the 5e approach of making the summons much more "narrow" in their scope (and beefing it up with the ports) to try and keep the scope or "width" of each of those spells in line with the scope and "width" of most other spells. </p><p></p><p>Obviously at the higher levels, there should be more potent "summon from anywhere" broad conjure spells which have similar broad scope and difficulties and costs as do other types of "broad list of capabilities" spells.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7297479, member: 6919838"] So as i think back to older editions and try to get a sense of what you are meaning behind the language, it seems like you are missing the option to summon "normal creatures" as in an olde Summon Monster that popped up goblins or such as contrasted to the current focus on summons as dealing almost certainly with more exo-planar creatures. if that is not it and you want or were referencing and you just want more summon good spirit kinds of stuff, sorry. To my way of thinking, the current model pretty much sets the bar at summons calls things from other realms, not just normal folks from this realm. The exception is of course things like druid natural summoning but that is clearly almost more of a sense of "call animal" and a representation of their ties to nature. For myself, I like this notion and distinction and think it sets a good more solid conceptual basis. Ye Olde "PCs summoned by a goblin shaman" debates being an example of the issues involved with allowing pretty non-specific summoning of more normal worldly denizens. I also do like linking the various teleport into the mix as well because of the similarity between bridging to bring a creature here and the manifestation of teleport. So, if your argument is about wanting to summon neutral or good outsiders, i would suggest simply allowing the creation of or the GM fiat of "a more generic approach to the existing spells. Simply replace the "demon" or "infernal" with "outsiders" and allow the caster to set the "base alignment" of the creature types the Gm will drawn on. There are, however, pitfalls that should be watched out for in expanding broadly the available summoning lists. PITFALL... if you uses this as a way of adjusting the creature's reactions away from the types of reactions and control listed with the specific spells, that would be a red flag to me. As i look at the spells, their breakdown by level is as much or more about the type of control and interaction than it is the flavor of beastie. So if someone wanted to replace Summer lesser demon at 3rd with summon lesser "angel" (or whatever LG would be) and then argue they would be friendly to the caster and his LG allies, i would see that as a no-no. PITFALL - if this was worked to be more of a "summon different powers" than "summon different allies to fight for me" because often "good" aligned creatures can have more healing or protective than offensive slashy bits, so that this could turn into a powerful, lower level mass heal out of combat, I would also view that as a red flag no-no bad faith effort. One of the more obvious cases would be say a low CR "good" outsiders which had an at will healing - even small - which might turn a 3rd level summons into a "heal whole party after fight" in addition to its use as a "summon minir beastie to scratch up enemies." PITFALL - i would also make sure the lack of control over specific summon type was kept in line with the existing spells. That avoids again a "swiss army knife" scope increase by allowing the caster to summon creatures fitted to a specific tactic or need even in combat. of hand, grappling comes to mind as something where for combat a simple "dial-a-varmint" could really enable a potency beyond the level of the spell aspect to creep in from a significant scope increase. At various times, in various editions, in various other games... it sometimes turned out that "more expansive summoning" ended up being morphed into a "swiss army knife" catch-all do-all utility "spell set" that gave an overly broad set of capabilities for rather low investment and expense. having seen that in play, i appreciate the 5e approach of making the summons much more "narrow" in their scope (and beefing it up with the ports) to try and keep the scope or "width" of each of those spells in line with the scope and "width" of most other spells. Obviously at the higher levels, there should be more potent "summon from anywhere" broad conjure spells which have similar broad scope and difficulties and costs as do other types of "broad list of capabilities" spells. [/QUOTE]
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