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<blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 6828325" data-attributes="member: 20564"><p>I'm not too fond of either in terms of ASI. The first has 3, all from fighter, and two feats. The second only has two ASI, and two feats. Even if it's starting variant human for one of those feats, the second build has a max dex of 18 with AL point buy and I think that makes the rest of the numbers off. I'll pretend it's right for the rest of the post to do a comparison, but I really doubt it is.</p><p></p><p>BTW, if they don't get hit all that much as a ranged combatant, the first one can cast and maintain bless for a better chance to hit AND help out two others in their party, an option the second one doesn't have. Also could toss out a bonus action heal to stand someone up. The second one may required party resources get sneak attack. So the first seems to have better team synergies.</p><p></p><p>The first not only has a larger superiority die, it has one more of them, and two more maneuvers.</p><p></p><p>Action surge doesn't allow SA to be dealt again in the same round, so the first gets much more out of Action Surge.</p><p></p><p>First option should be: 17 + d8 (4.5) + d6 (3.5) = 25 (not 24), and 30.5 with a d10 (5.5) maneuver adding it.</p><p>So it's 3.5 * 0.5 * 25 = 43.75 without maneuvers, up to 53.375 with maneuvers on all hits.</p><p></p><p>Second option should be: 17 + d8 (4.5) + d6 (3.5) = 25 for base attacks (including hordebreaker, not sure why you put it as 35 - what am I missing?). d8 (4.5) Manuever can bring it up to 29.5, and sneak attack if you get at least one hit a round is 4d6 (14).</p><p>So pre-SA it's 2.5 * 0.5 * 25 = 31.25, up to 36.775 with maneuvers on all hits. SA requires at least one to hit. With 2 attacks it's 75%, with 3 attacks it's 87.5%. With 2.5 attacks it's the ugly 82.3%. (1 - 0.5 ^ 2.5). So expected SA damage per round is 14 * .823 = ~11.5.</p><p>So final damage is 42.75, up to 48.275 with maneuvers.</p><p></p><p>First does slightly better damage with or without maneuvers. With the team synergy stuff I pointed out, more superiority dice, the better Action Surge, plus the fact that the second doesn't really have the ASI for the 20 Dex and both feats so it's actual damage output is even lower, I'll take the first build as stronger in practice.</p><p></p><p>Side note, both could improve their damage by switching from a longbow to a hand crossbow if range allowed it (and you have a +2 hand crossbow). Crossbow Expert can't grant a bonus action attack for a Longbow, but d8 to d6 is a 1 point reduction per attack, but you get +17 static damage +1d6 weapon damage and +1d6 hunters mark, which absolutely eclipses that minor reduction. Does take up the bonus action.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Blue, post: 6828325, member: 20564"] I'm not too fond of either in terms of ASI. The first has 3, all from fighter, and two feats. The second only has two ASI, and two feats. Even if it's starting variant human for one of those feats, the second build has a max dex of 18 with AL point buy and I think that makes the rest of the numbers off. I'll pretend it's right for the rest of the post to do a comparison, but I really doubt it is. BTW, if they don't get hit all that much as a ranged combatant, the first one can cast and maintain bless for a better chance to hit AND help out two others in their party, an option the second one doesn't have. Also could toss out a bonus action heal to stand someone up. The second one may required party resources get sneak attack. So the first seems to have better team synergies. The first not only has a larger superiority die, it has one more of them, and two more maneuvers. Action surge doesn't allow SA to be dealt again in the same round, so the first gets much more out of Action Surge. First option should be: 17 + d8 (4.5) + d6 (3.5) = 25 (not 24), and 30.5 with a d10 (5.5) maneuver adding it. So it's 3.5 * 0.5 * 25 = 43.75 without maneuvers, up to 53.375 with maneuvers on all hits. Second option should be: 17 + d8 (4.5) + d6 (3.5) = 25 for base attacks (including hordebreaker, not sure why you put it as 35 - what am I missing?). d8 (4.5) Manuever can bring it up to 29.5, and sneak attack if you get at least one hit a round is 4d6 (14). So pre-SA it's 2.5 * 0.5 * 25 = 31.25, up to 36.775 with maneuvers on all hits. SA requires at least one to hit. With 2 attacks it's 75%, with 3 attacks it's 87.5%. With 2.5 attacks it's the ugly 82.3%. (1 - 0.5 ^ 2.5). So expected SA damage per round is 14 * .823 = ~11.5. So final damage is 42.75, up to 48.275 with maneuvers. First does slightly better damage with or without maneuvers. With the team synergy stuff I pointed out, more superiority dice, the better Action Surge, plus the fact that the second doesn't really have the ASI for the 20 Dex and both feats so it's actual damage output is even lower, I'll take the first build as stronger in practice. Side note, both could improve their damage by switching from a longbow to a hand crossbow if range allowed it (and you have a +2 hand crossbow). Crossbow Expert can't grant a bonus action attack for a Longbow, but d8 to d6 is a 1 point reduction per attack, but you get +17 static damage +1d6 weapon damage and +1d6 hunters mark, which absolutely eclipses that minor reduction. Does take up the bonus action. [/QUOTE]
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