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Are monsters with legendary and or lair actions supposed to be boss monsters/
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7515450" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>[MENTION=6866720]Bootlebat[/MENTION] If you're interested in the inspiration for legendary monsters in 5e D&D, you might check out <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482422-Secret-Planescape-Origin-of-Legendary-Solo-Monsters" target="_blank">Planescape origins of legendary monsters</a> where I tracked down what I believe is the first AD&D reference to "Monsters of Legend" (long before 4e's solo monsters). Imagine the Nemean Lion of Hercules myth and its impenetrable hide, and you've got the right idea.</p><p></p><p>Borrowing the boss (video gaming) definition from Wikipedia. <strong><em>Emphasis</em></strong> mine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right away one possible point of difference between D&D 5e's legendary monsters and video game bosses is that D&D legendary monsters don't necessarily require special preparation and/or knowledge; a DM can introduce that into the battle, but it's not really part of the <em>Monster Manual</em>.</p><p></p><p>The closest thing D&D seems to have to this is whether the legendary monster is encountered in its lair or not, which can make a huge difference in how the confrontation plays out. It was for this reason that AD&D monsters stats had an entry for "Frequency encountered" which listed "% chance in lair", because lairs meant limited flight for dragons & presence of treasure hoard. What's cool in 5e is that they've balanced this by making lairs more of an environmental challenge/hazard.</p><p></p><p>Expanding on the idea of special preparation and/or knowledge... consider this trait of some video game bosses...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, this is not part of any D&D legendary monster I've read or run. A good DM can include such elements, but that's on the DM. Interestingly, this really feeds back into the <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482422-Secret-Planescape-Origin-of-Legendary-Solo-Monsters" target="_blank">Planescape origins of legendary monsters</a>, wherein "monsters of legend" had one very strong mythical defense against which players had to puzzle a workaround (e.g. lifting that cyclops immune to damage while in contact with the earth off his feet).</p><p></p><p>Furthermore...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Definitely not part of D&D legendary monsters. Certainly there hints of this during 4e with blooded condition triggers, and there were fans during 4e who incorporated phases and defense changes, but that was all fan effort, nothing official. </p><p></p><p>----------</p><p></p><p>I've only run a handful of legendary monsters so far, but I've slowly been incorporating these ideas such that when I do run my next legendary monster, I'll make a handful of tweaks:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Legends.</strong> IMHO, there could be more of a narrative focus for legendary monsters – what sort of legends are told about these legendary monsters? or what hooks/inspiration can we offer DMs to craft their own legends? I'll be introducing legends and rumors the PCs can learn in advance.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Mythic defense.</strong> I'll be looking for a way to incorporate a more mythic defense into the legendary monster that is tied to its story, rather than something generic like "Legendary Resistances." I really like the idea of conditions being reduced in effectiveness rather than being totally shutdown by "Legendary Resistances" (e.g. paralyzation preventing reactions/bonus actions/legendary actions rather than total paralyzation), but implementing that will depend on each monster's story.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Weakness.</strong> A special weakness of some kind that the PCs can use to bypass the monster's mythic defense, and possibly some kind of personality/behavioral flaw they can exploit. Possibly coming up with a called shot ruling when appropriate. This rewards advance preparation and/or clever thinking.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>In-Lair vs. Out-of-Lair.</strong> If there's a chance the legendary monster will be encountered out of its lair, I'll think about how its strategies will differ, and in both cases will think up how the environment can be used both by PCs and by the monster.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Something Changes.</strong> At some point, the encounter should change at least once, requiring the players to think on their feet and adapt to a new situation, objective, environmental hazard, introduction of minions, or changed stat block (e.g. triggered when reduced to half hit points) of the legendary monster. This is useful because legendary monsters tend to have lots of hit points, meaning longer fights, so keeping it fresh is important. This also can be used to drive home a monster's theme (e.g. a blue dragon causing the floor of a ruined temple to slope precipitously, spilling debris and PCs along the flagstone toward a yawning chasm of hissing sands, with ancient ruins of the city the blue dragon destroyed below).</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 7515450, member: 20323"] [MENTION=6866720]Bootlebat[/MENTION] If you're interested in the inspiration for legendary monsters in 5e D&D, you might check out [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482422-Secret-Planescape-Origin-of-Legendary-Solo-Monsters]Planescape origins of legendary monsters[/url] where I tracked down what I believe is the first AD&D reference to "Monsters of Legend" (long before 4e's solo monsters). Imagine the Nemean Lion of Hercules myth and its impenetrable hide, and you've got the right idea. Borrowing the boss (video gaming) definition from Wikipedia. [B][I]Emphasis[/I][/B] mine. Right away one possible point of difference between D&D 5e's legendary monsters and video game bosses is that D&D legendary monsters don't necessarily require special preparation and/or knowledge; a DM can introduce that into the battle, but it's not really part of the [I]Monster Manual[/I]. The closest thing D&D seems to have to this is whether the legendary monster is encountered in its lair or not, which can make a huge difference in how the confrontation plays out. It was for this reason that AD&D monsters stats had an entry for "Frequency encountered" which listed "% chance in lair", because lairs meant limited flight for dragons & presence of treasure hoard. What's cool in 5e is that they've balanced this by making lairs more of an environmental challenge/hazard. Expanding on the idea of special preparation and/or knowledge... consider this trait of some video game bosses... Again, this is not part of any D&D legendary monster I've read or run. A good DM can include such elements, but that's on the DM. Interestingly, this really feeds back into the [url=http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482422-Secret-Planescape-Origin-of-Legendary-Solo-Monsters]Planescape origins of legendary monsters[/url], wherein "monsters of legend" had one very strong mythical defense against which players had to puzzle a workaround (e.g. lifting that cyclops immune to damage while in contact with the earth off his feet). Furthermore... Definitely not part of D&D legendary monsters. Certainly there hints of this during 4e with blooded condition triggers, and there were fans during 4e who incorporated phases and defense changes, but that was all fan effort, nothing official. ---------- I've only run a handful of legendary monsters so far, but I've slowly been incorporating these ideas such that when I do run my next legendary monster, I'll make a handful of tweaks: [list][*][B]Legends.[/B] IMHO, there could be more of a narrative focus for legendary monsters – what sort of legends are told about these legendary monsters? or what hooks/inspiration can we offer DMs to craft their own legends? I'll be introducing legends and rumors the PCs can learn in advance. [*][B]Mythic defense.[/B] I'll be looking for a way to incorporate a more mythic defense into the legendary monster that is tied to its story, rather than something generic like "Legendary Resistances." I really like the idea of conditions being reduced in effectiveness rather than being totally shutdown by "Legendary Resistances" (e.g. paralyzation preventing reactions/bonus actions/legendary actions rather than total paralyzation), but implementing that will depend on each monster's story. [*][B]Weakness.[/B] A special weakness of some kind that the PCs can use to bypass the monster's mythic defense, and possibly some kind of personality/behavioral flaw they can exploit. Possibly coming up with a called shot ruling when appropriate. This rewards advance preparation and/or clever thinking. [*][B]In-Lair vs. Out-of-Lair.[/B] If there's a chance the legendary monster will be encountered out of its lair, I'll think about how its strategies will differ, and in both cases will think up how the environment can be used both by PCs and by the monster. [*][B]Something Changes.[/B] At some point, the encounter should change at least once, requiring the players to think on their feet and adapt to a new situation, objective, environmental hazard, introduction of minions, or changed stat block (e.g. triggered when reduced to half hit points) of the legendary monster. This is useful because legendary monsters tend to have lots of hit points, meaning longer fights, so keeping it fresh is important. This also can be used to drive home a monster's theme (e.g. a blue dragon causing the floor of a ruined temple to slope precipitously, spilling debris and PCs along the flagstone toward a yawning chasm of hissing sands, with ancient ruins of the city the blue dragon destroyed below).[/list] [/QUOTE]
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