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General Tabletop Discussion
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Are monsters with legendary and or lair actions supposed to be boss monsters/
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7518607" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>2 - Altering stat blocks is just one way, one option a Gm has to adjust an ecnounter to better suit the specifics of their campaign and their PCs. it is not required at all. Instead one might use more monsters or higher power monsters or more terrain factors etc etc etc. The key is *like almost if not every RPG made* 5e does not claim or try to provide any sort of guarantee about encounter threat that is not at its heart and sole GM chooses threats appropriate to his group. </p><p></p><p>3 - So Ok you throw out a lot of other games and so you wont use them to support your claims? OK. personally, i find an awful lot of my experience from those other games helps and applies when running DnD and vice-versa. </p><p></p><p>4 - i played a lot of 1-2-3e and all i can say is that i do not see any major difference between their "middle zone" play than 5es. 1e provided no CR system as i recall and i do not think 2e did but its been too long. But regardless for all three of those the strength of the encounter and such still came down to what the Gm chose to throw at them, the circumstance and the particulars of the party and players - not anything "published" in their rules. If anything 1e with its rather quick surge from "up" to "dead" had a tendency to make sudden swings in a battle's progress more common. If you would care to show whatever evidence you have that 1e did better at encounter building and management of outcomes or whatever than 5e does - i am all ears - errr - eyes.</p><p></p><p>5-6-7-8 - Whether or not its a "monster problem" or a "class problem" is pretty much irrelevant. The perceived "problem" only "exists" when classes go up against monsters (aka adversaries) and exists during that conflict so the "solutions" can be found on either or both sides of that. I routinely change monster HPs as well as routinely throw "adjusted" encounters at my group and that seems to have "solved" or at least prevented (perhaps in the strawberry whistle elephant meaning of prevent) this "problem" of too narrow a field of encounters between the two extremes and lack of middle ground - without any class changes. So, you may assume there is no "solution" to be found in the adversary side of the conflict or that 5e cannot be fixed - but that does not match my experience. </p><p></p><p>That said - i have not tended to find solo enemies to be particularly interesting or as fun to play on either side in any edition of DnD or really most any game. perhaps thats why so many of them often have those adversaries described and often directly including a variety of minions. </p><p></p><p>So, again i ask, what RPGs "work" by your standards in that out of the box without changes the GM doesn't need to choose encounters with an eye to his party but the incidence of the extreme results doesn't happen?</p><p></p><p>Cuz for me, as far back as 1e, a party with several clerics a fighter and a paladin would do a lot differently than a party with one fighter, a druid, and two rogues would when dealing with different types of monsters and what would be a smash, brawl or rout for one might be the exact opposite for the other - and neither of them would match up for a more traditional standard fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue quartet.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Edit to Clarify and to ask a question...</p><p></p><p>When i refer to adjusting HP for adversaries, i am actually referring to choosing the HP. I keep the range of Hp within the listed range of Hp shown on the stat block for the creature. I am referring to not using the average HP quick number, not just whole cloth changing it to some other range of stats. </p><p></p><p>Now to me, that is actually not adjusting the stat block, just using its acceptable range of options as presented, but i have tended to find some folks see it as "adjusting" so i use that term even tho there is not mandate to use the quickie average for either their HP or their damage.</p><p></p><p><strong>So, let me ask </strong>of those who see "adjusting stat blocks" as a system failure for a 5e game - for a displacer beast (HP <span style="color: #822000">[FONT=&quot]85 [/FONT]</span><span style="color: #822000">[FONT=&quot][/FONT]</span><span style="color: #822000">[FONT=&quot](10d10 + 30)[/FONT]</span>) would you see choosing to have your displacer beast at 65, 95 or 125hp be "not using the stat blocks" and a failure? Do you see the average values as mandatory to be used or just a quick option if you want to use them?</p><p></p><p>Cuz, in my experience, choosing the HP within the allowed range of the stat block goes a long way towards adjusting the encounter difficulty to the specifics of your group and not running into out of bounds results due to party and circumstance specifics - especially by the time solo/boss/lair/legend critters are in play with a group you have been playing for a while.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7518607, member: 6919838"] 2 - Altering stat blocks is just one way, one option a Gm has to adjust an ecnounter to better suit the specifics of their campaign and their PCs. it is not required at all. Instead one might use more monsters or higher power monsters or more terrain factors etc etc etc. The key is *like almost if not every RPG made* 5e does not claim or try to provide any sort of guarantee about encounter threat that is not at its heart and sole GM chooses threats appropriate to his group. 3 - So Ok you throw out a lot of other games and so you wont use them to support your claims? OK. personally, i find an awful lot of my experience from those other games helps and applies when running DnD and vice-versa. 4 - i played a lot of 1-2-3e and all i can say is that i do not see any major difference between their "middle zone" play than 5es. 1e provided no CR system as i recall and i do not think 2e did but its been too long. But regardless for all three of those the strength of the encounter and such still came down to what the Gm chose to throw at them, the circumstance and the particulars of the party and players - not anything "published" in their rules. If anything 1e with its rather quick surge from "up" to "dead" had a tendency to make sudden swings in a battle's progress more common. If you would care to show whatever evidence you have that 1e did better at encounter building and management of outcomes or whatever than 5e does - i am all ears - errr - eyes. 5-6-7-8 - Whether or not its a "monster problem" or a "class problem" is pretty much irrelevant. The perceived "problem" only "exists" when classes go up against monsters (aka adversaries) and exists during that conflict so the "solutions" can be found on either or both sides of that. I routinely change monster HPs as well as routinely throw "adjusted" encounters at my group and that seems to have "solved" or at least prevented (perhaps in the strawberry whistle elephant meaning of prevent) this "problem" of too narrow a field of encounters between the two extremes and lack of middle ground - without any class changes. So, you may assume there is no "solution" to be found in the adversary side of the conflict or that 5e cannot be fixed - but that does not match my experience. That said - i have not tended to find solo enemies to be particularly interesting or as fun to play on either side in any edition of DnD or really most any game. perhaps thats why so many of them often have those adversaries described and often directly including a variety of minions. So, again i ask, what RPGs "work" by your standards in that out of the box without changes the GM doesn't need to choose encounters with an eye to his party but the incidence of the extreme results doesn't happen? Cuz for me, as far back as 1e, a party with several clerics a fighter and a paladin would do a lot differently than a party with one fighter, a druid, and two rogues would when dealing with different types of monsters and what would be a smash, brawl or rout for one might be the exact opposite for the other - and neither of them would match up for a more traditional standard fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue quartet. Edit to Clarify and to ask a question... When i refer to adjusting HP for adversaries, i am actually referring to choosing the HP. I keep the range of Hp within the listed range of Hp shown on the stat block for the creature. I am referring to not using the average HP quick number, not just whole cloth changing it to some other range of stats. Now to me, that is actually not adjusting the stat block, just using its acceptable range of options as presented, but i have tended to find some folks see it as "adjusting" so i use that term even tho there is not mandate to use the quickie average for either their HP or their damage. [B]So, let me ask [/B]of those who see "adjusting stat blocks" as a system failure for a 5e game - for a displacer beast (HP [COLOR=#822000][FONT="]85 [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#822000][FONT="][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#822000][FONT="](10d10 + 30)[/FONT][/COLOR]) would you see choosing to have your displacer beast at 65, 95 or 125hp be "not using the stat blocks" and a failure? Do you see the average values as mandatory to be used or just a quick option if you want to use them? Cuz, in my experience, choosing the HP within the allowed range of the stat block goes a long way towards adjusting the encounter difficulty to the specifics of your group and not running into out of bounds results due to party and circumstance specifics - especially by the time solo/boss/lair/legend critters are in play with a group you have been playing for a while. [/QUOTE]
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Are monsters with legendary and or lair actions supposed to be boss monsters/
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