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Are rogues marginalized by magic?
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<blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 4442453" data-attributes="member: 35909"><p>No, my "solution" is to first acknowledge that D&D is a high magic, high fantasy setting, where people light up like christmas trees under detect magic, and not waste any time complaining about it. Instead, recognize that almost all classes are tied to these ever prevalent items and find solace in the fact that Rogues' skill list, SA dice, and player ingenuity* makes them very well equipped to put those existing conditions to their advantage, better than most other classes. Every single one of FranktheDM's examples does a great job of illustrating that, albeit inadvertently.</p><p></p><p>Summary: Magic isn't the enemy, it's just another tool to get the job done.</p><p></p><p></p><p>*[sblock]Just my experience, but rogue players fall into two types: novices and pros. The former are the ones you always hear about in threads, the dumb rogues that get killed by a trap cause they were behaving stupidly and not thinking in the "Rogue mindset." They tend to get killed off and the players pick a new class and move on. The latter category are the ones that actually matter, and (again IME) the more prevalent grouping. Being a Rogue, much like a Bard without the benefit of at least being able to mindlessly give the group +1's when in doubt, you're kinda middle of the road. Can't fight that great, can only use scrolls of several CL lower than what the mage can cast, etc... But you can cover a lot of ground. Thus the class tends to attract creative and tactical thinkers. Then there's the fact that whether they're in the enemy camp bluffing their a@@ off to gain some trust, nervously disarming a trap that poses great danger if it goes off, or presenting (self-) forged identification papers while in disguise to the king's guard under threat of execution if discovered, the class really forces you to be careful and paranoid, and think hard to resolve situations, often independent of the rest of the party's backup. The whole need to set up advantageous situations in order to get your good combat damage further enforces this. Because of all of these reasons, I've come to expect that the Rogue player will come up with many creative uses for the prevalent magic, moreso than perhaps anyone but the Wizard, strictly from the player's skill, not the character's. Of course, i consider myself a Rogue-archetype player, so I'm also just tooting my own horn. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Maybe other people have different experiences, but I find this to be true of good rogue players, and that it's important to keep in mind when discussing anything about the class.[/sblock]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="StreamOfTheSky, post: 4442453, member: 35909"] No, my "solution" is to first acknowledge that D&D is a high magic, high fantasy setting, where people light up like christmas trees under detect magic, and not waste any time complaining about it. Instead, recognize that almost all classes are tied to these ever prevalent items and find solace in the fact that Rogues' skill list, SA dice, and player ingenuity* makes them very well equipped to put those existing conditions to their advantage, better than most other classes. Every single one of FranktheDM's examples does a great job of illustrating that, albeit inadvertently. Summary: Magic isn't the enemy, it's just another tool to get the job done. *[sblock]Just my experience, but rogue players fall into two types: novices and pros. The former are the ones you always hear about in threads, the dumb rogues that get killed by a trap cause they were behaving stupidly and not thinking in the "Rogue mindset." They tend to get killed off and the players pick a new class and move on. The latter category are the ones that actually matter, and (again IME) the more prevalent grouping. Being a Rogue, much like a Bard without the benefit of at least being able to mindlessly give the group +1's when in doubt, you're kinda middle of the road. Can't fight that great, can only use scrolls of several CL lower than what the mage can cast, etc... But you can cover a lot of ground. Thus the class tends to attract creative and tactical thinkers. Then there's the fact that whether they're in the enemy camp bluffing their a@@ off to gain some trust, nervously disarming a trap that poses great danger if it goes off, or presenting (self-) forged identification papers while in disguise to the king's guard under threat of execution if discovered, the class really forces you to be careful and paranoid, and think hard to resolve situations, often independent of the rest of the party's backup. The whole need to set up advantageous situations in order to get your good combat damage further enforces this. Because of all of these reasons, I've come to expect that the Rogue player will come up with many creative uses for the prevalent magic, moreso than perhaps anyone but the Wizard, strictly from the player's skill, not the character's. Of course, i consider myself a Rogue-archetype player, so I'm also just tooting my own horn. :) Maybe other people have different experiences, but I find this to be true of good rogue players, and that it's important to keep in mind when discussing anything about the class.[/sblock] [/QUOTE]
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