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Arguments and assumptions against multi classing
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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7496373" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>I totally agree that this conversation is how the game actually works in practice.</p><p></p><p>My point has never been that it's 100% player or DM when talking about how the game actually occurs at real tables. My point is about who comes up with the PC's fluff, player or DM. It's the player. The DM doesn't create it, the player does.</p><p></p><p>Let me put it this way: at the start of the campaign the DM says words to the effect of, "Here's my campaign/world; what do you think?" Sure, the player might have some <em>suggestions</em> about tweaking stuff, but it's the DM's creation. What does <strong>not</strong> happen is that the <em>player</em> creates the world/campaign!</p><p></p><p>What happens after the DM presents the world/campaign is that the players create a PC to play in that campaign/world. So they cannot player cyberware in a world without cyberware.</p><p></p><p>Then the player presents their PC, crunch and fluff, to the DM. The player says words to the effect of, "Here's my PC; what do you think?" Sure, the DM might have some <em>suggestions</em> about things like personality, events in the backstory, whatever. The DM might also say no to some things, <em>and tell the player <strong>why</strong> they object to that thing</em>, so that they can tweak it.</p><p></p><p>But what I've been saying all along (although perhaps I could have been clearer) is that what does <strong>not</strong> happen is that the <strong>DM</strong> creates the PC's backstory, personality, etc.</p><p></p><p>Unless the campaign is using pre-gens, but even then the expectation is that the player gets to adjust the pre-gen's fluff.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying it's <em>impossible</em> to do it another way, I'm saying that the expectation of the hobby is that:-</p><p></p><p>* the <u>DM</u> creates the world/campaign's fluff</p><p></p><p>* the <u>player</u> creates their own PC's fluff, within the idea space of that world/campaign</p><p></p><p>This agency to create their own PC is just as crucial to the hobby as their agency to control their own PC.</p><p></p><p>Imagine this:_</p><p></p><p>Player: I attack the evil mage!</p><p>DM: No you don't. You attack his henchman, because that's the kind of thing your PC would do.</p><p></p><p>NO! <em>I</em> decide what <em>my</em> PC does, within the realm of the possible. Can you imagine the player saying, "No, the evil mage doesn't cast <em>disintegrate</em>, he attacks me with his dagger instead. Because that's what he would do."</p><p></p><p>Lines of demarcation. The <em>player</em> controls their own PC, The DM controls the everything else!</p><p></p><p>And this principle extends to character creation fluff.</p><p></p><p>Player: my new PC is a bit arrogant.</p><p>DM: no he isn't, he's quite sweet actually.</p><p></p><p>NO! <em>I</em> decide my own PC's personality, not the DM!</p><p></p><p>How about this:_</p><p></p><p>Player: my new rogue has a wide array of skills, but has never actually stolen anything in his life.</p><p>DM: no, you are not allowed to take levels in the rogue class unless you steal things.</p><p></p><p>NO! <em>I</em> choose what my PC does, not the DM.</p><p></p><p>Are these silly examples? Yes. But no more silly than the idea that PCs are not allowed to take levels in the barbarian class if they can read/wear any more than a leather posing pouch/<em>were raised in a city</em>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 7496373, member: 6799649"] I totally agree that this conversation is how the game actually works in practice. My point has never been that it's 100% player or DM when talking about how the game actually occurs at real tables. My point is about who comes up with the PC's fluff, player or DM. It's the player. The DM doesn't create it, the player does. Let me put it this way: at the start of the campaign the DM says words to the effect of, "Here's my campaign/world; what do you think?" Sure, the player might have some [I]suggestions[/I] about tweaking stuff, but it's the DM's creation. What does [B]not[/B] happen is that the [I]player[/I] creates the world/campaign! What happens after the DM presents the world/campaign is that the players create a PC to play in that campaign/world. So they cannot player cyberware in a world without cyberware. Then the player presents their PC, crunch and fluff, to the DM. The player says words to the effect of, "Here's my PC; what do you think?" Sure, the DM might have some [I]suggestions[/I] about things like personality, events in the backstory, whatever. The DM might also say no to some things, [I]and tell the player [B]why[/B] they object to that thing[/I], so that they can tweak it. But what I've been saying all along (although perhaps I could have been clearer) is that what does [B]not[/B] happen is that the [B]DM[/B] creates the PC's backstory, personality, etc. Unless the campaign is using pre-gens, but even then the expectation is that the player gets to adjust the pre-gen's fluff. I'm not saying it's [I]impossible[/I] to do it another way, I'm saying that the expectation of the hobby is that:- * the [U]DM[/U] creates the world/campaign's fluff * the [U]player[/U] creates their own PC's fluff, within the idea space of that world/campaign This agency to create their own PC is just as crucial to the hobby as their agency to control their own PC. Imagine this:_ Player: I attack the evil mage! DM: No you don't. You attack his henchman, because that's the kind of thing your PC would do. NO! [I]I[/I] decide what [I]my[/I] PC does, within the realm of the possible. Can you imagine the player saying, "No, the evil mage doesn't cast [I]disintegrate[/I], he attacks me with his dagger instead. Because that's what he would do." Lines of demarcation. The [I]player[/I] controls their own PC, The DM controls the everything else! And this principle extends to character creation fluff. Player: my new PC is a bit arrogant. DM: no he isn't, he's quite sweet actually. NO! [I]I[/I] decide my own PC's personality, not the DM! How about this:_ Player: my new rogue has a wide array of skills, but has never actually stolen anything in his life. DM: no, you are not allowed to take levels in the rogue class unless you steal things. NO! [I]I[/I] choose what my PC does, not the DM. Are these silly examples? Yes. But no more silly than the idea that PCs are not allowed to take levels in the barbarian class if they can read/wear any more than a leather posing pouch/[I]were raised in a city[/I]. [/QUOTE]
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