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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5683374" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>So, the potential for 56 to 70 points of damage with average damage rolls in a single round (more with any criticals) against a single second level PC. Sure, the odds of taking out the Paladin with such a tactic isn't great, but 3 attacks hitting him, especially if one knocked him prone, could have done the job. On average, close to 2 out of 5 attacks would have hit him anyway, so 3 was not out of the question. It also depends on whether the Paladin won initiative over any party leader. If so, then even if healed, there would be the potential for round two kill the prone Paladin action. In fact, since the Wizard killed one foe, there was the potential for 6 attacks on the Paladin in round one before any other PC could act if the Wizard delayed or used a smaller ranged attack.</p><p></p><p>Ditto for any other PC in the group whom the bad guys decided to AP gut.</p><p></p><p>5 attacks (6 if the Wizard hadn't killed a foe) from 3 (4) foes is just plain nasty when 2 to 3 successful hits could take out nearly any PC. I suspect that if I was running a Wizard, I would have tried Burning Hands as well depending on how many foes I could have gotten with it. Or, I might have delayed and blasted later on if I thought that the Paladin was going to suck up some of the NPC attacks (as it turned out, the same DM tactics might have seriously wiped the Paladin as well and players might have asked the question "Why didn't the Wizard blast them when she had the chance?"). There are almost always better tactics available, but it doesn't sound like blasting by a Wizard is a terrible one when blasting is a core Wizard option.</p><p></p><p>I do wonder if you would have pulled out the APs in round one if the Paladin was the primary target. Would the high AC of the Paladin have disuaded you from trying that as DM? Consciously or subconsciously, were you trying to teach the player of the Wizard a lesson in what you perceived to be poor player tactics? The player saw 4 foes, so the thought that NPCs might be using action points might not have entered her mind. You did pull a bit of a fast one on her. It basically sounds like you purposely wanted to "teach her a lesson" for not playing the way you thought she should based on your "Wizards shouldn't try to tank" comment. You appear to have strong feelings on that. Personally, I play all of my PCs as heroes and all of them jump into the fray on occasion, so I would be extremely annoyed if a DM tried to teach me a lesson.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is an issue with rolling group initiatives. This was only an N+1 encounter, but you wiped out a PC nonetheless in round one. I used to roll individual initiatives, but I'm on the fence about it for my new campaign. Examples like these (plus statistical fairness) illustrate the reason to roll individual initiatives. Speed is the reason to roll group initiatives.</p><p></p><p>But for every time most of the PCs win init and hence, the battle goes quickly, there are more times (especially with the high init bonuses that most monsters have) where NPC group init means 5+ unanswered attacks on the PCs. The PCs have to win the encounter every time (shy of running away), the NPCs only have to win once.</p><p></p><p>My personal experience is that the NPCs tend to be winning encounters in round one and two, but that usually by round three, PCs start turning the tide and the encounter eventually becomes an NPC rout. But, some PCs are often bloodied by then with a fair portion of damage coming from winning group init by NPCs.</p><p></p><p>I guess I might have to start rolling individual initiatives ahead of time before game day so that I have them all listed, just in the name of fairness and in order to not go ballistic on the PCs before the players can even react.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5683374, member: 2011"] So, the potential for 56 to 70 points of damage with average damage rolls in a single round (more with any criticals) against a single second level PC. Sure, the odds of taking out the Paladin with such a tactic isn't great, but 3 attacks hitting him, especially if one knocked him prone, could have done the job. On average, close to 2 out of 5 attacks would have hit him anyway, so 3 was not out of the question. It also depends on whether the Paladin won initiative over any party leader. If so, then even if healed, there would be the potential for round two kill the prone Paladin action. In fact, since the Wizard killed one foe, there was the potential for 6 attacks on the Paladin in round one before any other PC could act if the Wizard delayed or used a smaller ranged attack. Ditto for any other PC in the group whom the bad guys decided to AP gut. 5 attacks (6 if the Wizard hadn't killed a foe) from 3 (4) foes is just plain nasty when 2 to 3 successful hits could take out nearly any PC. I suspect that if I was running a Wizard, I would have tried Burning Hands as well depending on how many foes I could have gotten with it. Or, I might have delayed and blasted later on if I thought that the Paladin was going to suck up some of the NPC attacks (as it turned out, the same DM tactics might have seriously wiped the Paladin as well and players might have asked the question "Why didn't the Wizard blast them when she had the chance?"). There are almost always better tactics available, but it doesn't sound like blasting by a Wizard is a terrible one when blasting is a core Wizard option. I do wonder if you would have pulled out the APs in round one if the Paladin was the primary target. Would the high AC of the Paladin have disuaded you from trying that as DM? Consciously or subconsciously, were you trying to teach the player of the Wizard a lesson in what you perceived to be poor player tactics? The player saw 4 foes, so the thought that NPCs might be using action points might not have entered her mind. You did pull a bit of a fast one on her. It basically sounds like you purposely wanted to "teach her a lesson" for not playing the way you thought she should based on your "Wizards shouldn't try to tank" comment. You appear to have strong feelings on that. Personally, I play all of my PCs as heroes and all of them jump into the fray on occasion, so I would be extremely annoyed if a DM tried to teach me a lesson. This is an issue with rolling group initiatives. This was only an N+1 encounter, but you wiped out a PC nonetheless in round one. I used to roll individual initiatives, but I'm on the fence about it for my new campaign. Examples like these (plus statistical fairness) illustrate the reason to roll individual initiatives. Speed is the reason to roll group initiatives. But for every time most of the PCs win init and hence, the battle goes quickly, there are more times (especially with the high init bonuses that most monsters have) where NPC group init means 5+ unanswered attacks on the PCs. The PCs have to win the encounter every time (shy of running away), the NPCs only have to win once. My personal experience is that the NPCs tend to be winning encounters in round one and two, but that usually by round three, PCs start turning the tide and the encounter eventually becomes an NPC rout. But, some PCs are often bloodied by then with a fair portion of damage coming from winning group init by NPCs. I guess I might have to start rolling individual initiatives ahead of time before game day so that I have them all listed, just in the name of fairness and in order to not go ballistic on the PCs before the players can even react. [/QUOTE]
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