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Attack of the Clones: Simulacrum
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<blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 6552391" data-attributes="member: 45197"><p>Hiya!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> I agree. Silly. What's more silly is that a grown adult tries to pull this in the first place. An RPG isn't a game about trying to "win" anything...and especially not about trying to "win" in the same sense as an MMO can be "won" (yes, I believe you can "win" an MMO; usually the first couple people to "win" end up getting banned or temporarily suspended for breaking something in the EULA...that something is usually the "don't try and exploit or use a bug in the system to do stuff nobody else can without doing the same thing"...basically, the "don't be a Richard" clause; item/gold duplication bugs, for example).</p><p></p><p> A player who stumbles upon some rules "exploit" shouldn't try and use it in some delusional hope of "winning D&D". He/She should tell everyone in the group about it, especially the DM, and discuss a fix. Or at least see if he/she is reading it the way he/she thinks they are.</p><p></p><p> Having your character become more powerful as they play is a big part of most RPG's. It's not about that. It's about trying to use the rules in such a way as to circumvent the process of gaining that power through play. The way I see the OP's interpretation of the Clone spell, it seems it was written in the way of trying to "win" as opposed to trying to enhance everyone's fun at the table (yes, that includes the DM). Hence, my 'silly' interpretation of "becoming more powerful". Hey, if the player can be silly...so can I. And, being the DM, my silliness will always "win". <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not a single one. Didn't even cross their minds, actually. During my first "outing of player malarkey" there was a distinctly uncomfortable silence. Kinda like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar when you were a kid. Everyone at the table knew <em>exactly</em> what and why the player was doing what he was doing. But, up until that part, nobody would say anything because (A) they didn't want that emotional uncomfortability, and (B) because the player would/could just point to the books and say <em>"See? This is what I'm doing. My character would have no problem with doing that, he's Chaotic after all. It makes sense for him"</em>. And, I, as DM, would think "...dang it, he's right about the rules...and I'm the DM....I don't get to decide how he plays his character...grrrrr....I hope this doesn't implode the campaign!....".</p><p></p><p> But then I realized something. Sure, I can't tell him how to play his character, but I'm the DM and it's my job to try and maintain a fun and believable campaign setting from which everyone (including myself) at the table can be proud of playing. Ergo, I would have to "counter" the players actions in-game via monsters, NPC's, etc that I would likely have to create. In short, it was nothing but a game of one-upmanship. A "cold war", in a way. With neither side actually having the b@!!z to say what everyone was thinking. So I did the unexpected. I brought it up the next time it happened, adult to adult, person to person, friend to friend. Right there at the table, with everyone present.</p><p></p><p> After that session, we've never had that problem. That was probably....I can't remember exactly... at least two decades ago I guess. Playing a table top RPG is a group effort. Everyone is a part of the game. A Player doesn't play his character in a vacuum. His choices (not what his character does...the human player's choices) affect everyone at the table. If someone comes to the game in a REALLY bad mood, it affects everyone at the table. Watching a fellow player try and "cheat" (re: win the game via rule exploitation or general Richardness) also affects everyone at the table. The more it goes on, the more tension in the group, the less fun everyone at the table ends up having. </p><p></p><p>The effect of player shenanigans like this are seen time and time again on these boards and others. Usually some poor DM comes to the board with a "one of my players has an OP character", or "one of my players characters is constantly [doing something dickish...like stealing from the party]", or "in my game I have one player who tries to bully other players at the table by all manner of passive-aggressive behaviour", etc. What is the normal response by a LOT of the good folks on these forums? Usually it's "Talk to him after the game" or "Talk to everyone before the next game about...". Good advice, but it removes the premises of responsibility from the player in question. The problem player is never confronted <em>by the group</em>, so it leads to the same problems above (A and B). Everyone at the table <em>knows</em> that the DM had a talk with Player X...but doesn't say anything about it. That sense of "we know what's going on...but we all have to pretend like it never happened" hangs over the whole table. This, IMHO, is never a good thing.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, sorry for the lengthy post and side-threadedness. I honestly have no problem with players trying to find clever uses for spells, abilities, equipment or whatever. That creativity and unpredictability is a large part of my enjoyment of the game. I love it when I put something in an adventure where I'm thinking "I have no idea how they will survive this if they try and confront it....oh well, they can always run away....". And then, when they encounter it, someone pulls out a bag of nails, the wizard casts Spell X and the Thief climbs the wall and does something that completely screws-over the bad guys, giving the PC's a decent chance of success. *That* is cool. Having a player say "I just send in 10 of my 20th level clones to level the place" isn't in any way, shape, or form "fun" or "good times".</p><p></p><p>^_^</p><p></p><p>Paul L. Ming</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pming, post: 6552391, member: 45197"] Hiya! I agree. Silly. What's more silly is that a grown adult tries to pull this in the first place. An RPG isn't a game about trying to "win" anything...and especially not about trying to "win" in the same sense as an MMO can be "won" (yes, I believe you can "win" an MMO; usually the first couple people to "win" end up getting banned or temporarily suspended for breaking something in the EULA...that something is usually the "don't try and exploit or use a bug in the system to do stuff nobody else can without doing the same thing"...basically, the "don't be a Richard" clause; item/gold duplication bugs, for example). A player who stumbles upon some rules "exploit" shouldn't try and use it in some delusional hope of "winning D&D". He/She should tell everyone in the group about it, especially the DM, and discuss a fix. Or at least see if he/she is reading it the way he/she thinks they are. Having your character become more powerful as they play is a big part of most RPG's. It's not about that. It's about trying to use the rules in such a way as to circumvent the process of gaining that power through play. The way I see the OP's interpretation of the Clone spell, it seems it was written in the way of trying to "win" as opposed to trying to enhance everyone's fun at the table (yes, that includes the DM). Hence, my 'silly' interpretation of "becoming more powerful". Hey, if the player can be silly...so can I. And, being the DM, my silliness will always "win". ;) Not a single one. Didn't even cross their minds, actually. During my first "outing of player malarkey" there was a distinctly uncomfortable silence. Kinda like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar when you were a kid. Everyone at the table knew [I]exactly[/I] what and why the player was doing what he was doing. But, up until that part, nobody would say anything because (A) they didn't want that emotional uncomfortability, and (B) because the player would/could just point to the books and say [I]"See? This is what I'm doing. My character would have no problem with doing that, he's Chaotic after all. It makes sense for him"[/I]. And, I, as DM, would think "...dang it, he's right about the rules...and I'm the DM....I don't get to decide how he plays his character...grrrrr....I hope this doesn't implode the campaign!....". But then I realized something. Sure, I can't tell him how to play his character, but I'm the DM and it's my job to try and maintain a fun and believable campaign setting from which everyone (including myself) at the table can be proud of playing. Ergo, I would have to "counter" the players actions in-game via monsters, NPC's, etc that I would likely have to create. In short, it was nothing but a game of one-upmanship. A "cold war", in a way. With neither side actually having the b@!!z to say what everyone was thinking. So I did the unexpected. I brought it up the next time it happened, adult to adult, person to person, friend to friend. Right there at the table, with everyone present. After that session, we've never had that problem. That was probably....I can't remember exactly... at least two decades ago I guess. Playing a table top RPG is a group effort. Everyone is a part of the game. A Player doesn't play his character in a vacuum. His choices (not what his character does...the human player's choices) affect everyone at the table. If someone comes to the game in a REALLY bad mood, it affects everyone at the table. Watching a fellow player try and "cheat" (re: win the game via rule exploitation or general Richardness) also affects everyone at the table. The more it goes on, the more tension in the group, the less fun everyone at the table ends up having. The effect of player shenanigans like this are seen time and time again on these boards and others. Usually some poor DM comes to the board with a "one of my players has an OP character", or "one of my players characters is constantly [doing something dickish...like stealing from the party]", or "in my game I have one player who tries to bully other players at the table by all manner of passive-aggressive behaviour", etc. What is the normal response by a LOT of the good folks on these forums? Usually it's "Talk to him after the game" or "Talk to everyone before the next game about...". Good advice, but it removes the premises of responsibility from the player in question. The problem player is never confronted [I]by the group[/I], so it leads to the same problems above (A and B). Everyone at the table [I]knows[/I] that the DM had a talk with Player X...but doesn't say anything about it. That sense of "we know what's going on...but we all have to pretend like it never happened" hangs over the whole table. This, IMHO, is never a good thing. Anyway, sorry for the lengthy post and side-threadedness. I honestly have no problem with players trying to find clever uses for spells, abilities, equipment or whatever. That creativity and unpredictability is a large part of my enjoyment of the game. I love it when I put something in an adventure where I'm thinking "I have no idea how they will survive this if they try and confront it....oh well, they can always run away....". And then, when they encounter it, someone pulls out a bag of nails, the wizard casts Spell X and the Thief climbs the wall and does something that completely screws-over the bad guys, giving the PC's a decent chance of success. *That* is cool. Having a player say "I just send in 10 of my 20th level clones to level the place" isn't in any way, shape, or form "fun" or "good times". ^_^ Paul L. Ming [/QUOTE]
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