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Avengers: Endgame SPOILER THREAD
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7603054" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>Umm, they were sent to retrieve the stone. They already had motivation. The death of Black Widow in no way motivates Hawkeye to do anything. Still not seeing it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, this is reaching pretty hard. Fridging is a very, very specific trope. It's when you kill off the female character pointlessly for the sole purpose of motivating the male protagonist. That is very much not true here in any, way, shape or form. Thanos didn't decide to do the snap because he killed Gamora, nor did he decide to get the stones because he killed Gamora. He killed Gamora because he had to kill something he loved in order to get the stones. Hawkeye doesn't even get that much. Black Widow kills herself. She sacrifices herself for the greater good because she believes that Hawkeye has to return to his lost family. She can never get a family back. This way, she gets to reunite a family, go out a big bloody hero and achieve her goals. </p><p></p><p>Again, not seeing the problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, only if we reach really, really hard to find interpretations that fit a specific narrative and misapply tropes. Black Widow dies to save a family. How else would you expect Black Widow, the character that BECOMES the hero Black Widow because of destroying a family, to die?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Are you seriously saying that this is a position that no woman would ever take? Really? That being unable to have children is something that would never cause any woman to question herself? Because, well, there's a rather large amount of research and whatnot that would tell you differently. </p><p></p><p>But, the point is, and it's hammered home that SHE'S WRONG. She's never presented as being right in this. She feels this way, but, those feelings are not supported by anything else. She's a hero in the movies who has overcome her past to become the leader of the Avengers, keeping the world together when everyone else has buggered off to do their own thing. </p><p></p><p>Heck, I'll see your anecdote with one of my one, where friends have had their tubes tied and reacted EXACTLY the same way as Black Widow. I'd say it's a lot more important to show that despite losing the ability to have children, you can still be a hero that everyone loves and looks up to. Remember, two characters - Banner and Hawkeye are shown to show great affection for Black Widow. The other female characters all look up to her and treat her as an equal or a superior even. At no point is she shown to be anything less than a hero, regardless of her ability to have children.</p><p></p><p>I'd say that's a much, much more powerful message to send out there than trying to claim that her death is "fridging". That's so disrespectful to the character and what the character does. You're basically saying that her sacrifice is pointless and completely outside of her control. Which, frankly, is the opposite of the truth.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7603054, member: 22779"] Umm, they were sent to retrieve the stone. They already had motivation. The death of Black Widow in no way motivates Hawkeye to do anything. Still not seeing it. Again, this is reaching pretty hard. Fridging is a very, very specific trope. It's when you kill off the female character pointlessly for the sole purpose of motivating the male protagonist. That is very much not true here in any, way, shape or form. Thanos didn't decide to do the snap because he killed Gamora, nor did he decide to get the stones because he killed Gamora. He killed Gamora because he had to kill something he loved in order to get the stones. Hawkeye doesn't even get that much. Black Widow kills herself. She sacrifices herself for the greater good because she believes that Hawkeye has to return to his lost family. She can never get a family back. This way, she gets to reunite a family, go out a big bloody hero and achieve her goals. Again, not seeing the problem. Yeah, only if we reach really, really hard to find interpretations that fit a specific narrative and misapply tropes. Black Widow dies to save a family. How else would you expect Black Widow, the character that BECOMES the hero Black Widow because of destroying a family, to die? Are you seriously saying that this is a position that no woman would ever take? Really? That being unable to have children is something that would never cause any woman to question herself? Because, well, there's a rather large amount of research and whatnot that would tell you differently. But, the point is, and it's hammered home that SHE'S WRONG. She's never presented as being right in this. She feels this way, but, those feelings are not supported by anything else. She's a hero in the movies who has overcome her past to become the leader of the Avengers, keeping the world together when everyone else has buggered off to do their own thing. Heck, I'll see your anecdote with one of my one, where friends have had their tubes tied and reacted EXACTLY the same way as Black Widow. I'd say it's a lot more important to show that despite losing the ability to have children, you can still be a hero that everyone loves and looks up to. Remember, two characters - Banner and Hawkeye are shown to show great affection for Black Widow. The other female characters all look up to her and treat her as an equal or a superior even. At no point is she shown to be anything less than a hero, regardless of her ability to have children. I'd say that's a much, much more powerful message to send out there than trying to claim that her death is "fridging". That's so disrespectful to the character and what the character does. You're basically saying that her sacrifice is pointless and completely outside of her control. Which, frankly, is the opposite of the truth. [/QUOTE]
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