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B/X D&D on balance
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<blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5881102" data-attributes="member: 83768"><p>Of course. They place the treasure. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The judge is placing the monsters. Therefore it's their responsibility to maintain the correct balance in this respect. </p><p></p><p>B/X is totally "Step On Up" gameplay, which means that the goal is to present a relative challenge and see if the players can overcome it. </p><p></p><p>It's pointless to do that if the judge puts an ancient dragon at the entrance to every 1st level dungeon. </p><p></p><p>This reminds me of Apocalypse World's "setting expectations" section where Baker says something to the effect of, "Hey, if I wanted to, I could be like, 'There's an earthquake, you all take 10 harm. The end.'" </p><p></p><p>That's not what I'm going to do, because we're here to play to find out what happens. The best way to do that is to allow the PCs to have reasonable challenges. </p><p></p><p>With that said, a lot of that depends on the campaign. In our B/X campaign, we're doing a sandbox style campaign. So, the balance isn't tailored to the party necessarily, but tailored by Gold to Monster ratio. A dragon will be protecting a large hoard of treasure, and a goblin hideout will have a much smaller reward. This allows the PCs to choose their "level of difficulty" as it were. </p><p></p><p>But, it's still the DM's responsibility to place appropriate monsters with appropriate treasure and whatnot. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See above about "tough enough" - but also, I think the "stealth-style" is an emergent feature, not a specific gameplay device. If it's to your benefit to avoid combat or heavily stack the odds in your favor, since they can be quite deadly and "swingy", then the players will learn to do that. </p><p></p><p>I stopped being surprised by player ingenuity a long time ago. I just expect them to come up with brilliant <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> to overcome my challenges nowadays. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think it's radically different, no. </p><p></p><p>I do think the means and goals are different. Whereas, B/X says, "Here's a dungeon. Go get as much treasure as you can!" You aren't necessarily expected to overcome all the encounters, but it's certainly a possibility. And, the reward is getting out with the most treasure possible, with the least losses. </p><p></p><p>4E seems to be more, "Here's a string of encounters. Let's see you beat them!" Which is seemingly the same, but there's a big difference. This to me is far more "Right to Dream". The goal isn't for the PCs to see if they can overcome the challenge, but to see HOW they overcome the challenge, with all of their neat tricks and cool techniques for using those tricks. It's just expected that the 4E players will need to deal with these encounters (it's how you get XP after all) and overcome them. The real joy is watching the encounter unfold and seeing how the players do it. That's why there is rarely much retreat in 4E. Sure, things could go horribly wrong, but that's super rare (at least in my experience) combat is designed to be played out with all of the powers coming to fruition. </p><p></p><p>Hmmm. I'm trying to think of a cool analogy. 4E is like a Haunted House, with all these cool sets and scares and so on. You're expected to go through each and see the neat stuff that happens and get scared, sure, but mostly come out at the end. </p><p></p><p>Now, imagine if you could go into a haunted house and the goal wasn't to see all the scares. The goal is actually to make it out of the other end and get scared as little as possible and you can do whatever it takes to get there. </p><p></p><p>So, no. I think 4E and B/X do use very similar in balancing techniques. The difference is the end-goal and means. </p><p></p><p>I don't think either playstyle is bad, btw. Both have their upsides and downsides. Some people love playing the game where they come out in the end bruised and battered, but ultimately expected to win the day. Others prefer the challenge aspect, where victory isn't expected, but earned.</p><p></p><p>I also think you <em>can</em> play 4E that way - I've done it - but, you have to change a lot of the core to do it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="P1NBACK, post: 5881102, member: 83768"] Of course. They place the treasure. The judge is placing the monsters. Therefore it's their responsibility to maintain the correct balance in this respect. B/X is totally "Step On Up" gameplay, which means that the goal is to present a relative challenge and see if the players can overcome it. It's pointless to do that if the judge puts an ancient dragon at the entrance to every 1st level dungeon. This reminds me of Apocalypse World's "setting expectations" section where Baker says something to the effect of, "Hey, if I wanted to, I could be like, 'There's an earthquake, you all take 10 harm. The end.'" That's not what I'm going to do, because we're here to play to find out what happens. The best way to do that is to allow the PCs to have reasonable challenges. With that said, a lot of that depends on the campaign. In our B/X campaign, we're doing a sandbox style campaign. So, the balance isn't tailored to the party necessarily, but tailored by Gold to Monster ratio. A dragon will be protecting a large hoard of treasure, and a goblin hideout will have a much smaller reward. This allows the PCs to choose their "level of difficulty" as it were. But, it's still the DM's responsibility to place appropriate monsters with appropriate treasure and whatnot. See above about "tough enough" - but also, I think the "stealth-style" is an emergent feature, not a specific gameplay device. If it's to your benefit to avoid combat or heavily stack the odds in your favor, since they can be quite deadly and "swingy", then the players will learn to do that. I stopped being surprised by player ingenuity a long time ago. I just expect them to come up with brilliant :):):):) to overcome my challenges nowadays. I don't think it's radically different, no. I do think the means and goals are different. Whereas, B/X says, "Here's a dungeon. Go get as much treasure as you can!" You aren't necessarily expected to overcome all the encounters, but it's certainly a possibility. And, the reward is getting out with the most treasure possible, with the least losses. 4E seems to be more, "Here's a string of encounters. Let's see you beat them!" Which is seemingly the same, but there's a big difference. This to me is far more "Right to Dream". The goal isn't for the PCs to see if they can overcome the challenge, but to see HOW they overcome the challenge, with all of their neat tricks and cool techniques for using those tricks. It's just expected that the 4E players will need to deal with these encounters (it's how you get XP after all) and overcome them. The real joy is watching the encounter unfold and seeing how the players do it. That's why there is rarely much retreat in 4E. Sure, things could go horribly wrong, but that's super rare (at least in my experience) combat is designed to be played out with all of the powers coming to fruition. Hmmm. I'm trying to think of a cool analogy. 4E is like a Haunted House, with all these cool sets and scares and so on. You're expected to go through each and see the neat stuff that happens and get scared, sure, but mostly come out at the end. Now, imagine if you could go into a haunted house and the goal wasn't to see all the scares. The goal is actually to make it out of the other end and get scared as little as possible and you can do whatever it takes to get there. So, no. I think 4E and B/X do use very similar in balancing techniques. The difference is the end-goal and means. I don't think either playstyle is bad, btw. Both have their upsides and downsides. Some people love playing the game where they come out in the end bruised and battered, but ultimately expected to win the day. Others prefer the challenge aspect, where victory isn't expected, but earned. I also think you [I]can[/I] play 4E that way - I've done it - but, you have to change a lot of the core to do it. [/QUOTE]
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