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<blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5881826" data-attributes="member: 83768"><p>Andor, it's perfectly reasonable to be confused about it. There's a big reason "GNS" was replaced by the Big Model (Right to Dream, Story Now, Step On Up), and I presume it's because people bastardized "simulationism" and "gamism" and whatnot to mean something else. </p><p></p><p>I didn't "grok" simulationism for the longest time. I thought, as you do, that simulationism meant "simulating" the world or whatever. Most people on this forum use it that way. That's fine. </p><p></p><p>But, when people are talking about Right to Dream and Step On Up, that's not what it means at all. </p><p></p><p>So, here's my take on defining each:<p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Step On Up</strong> ("gamism") is focused on players coming to the table expecting a challenge and the goal of the session is to see if they can overcome the challenge or not. This method often has scoring and victory conditions (short or long term), which may be overt or subtle (bragging rights). But, ultimately the goal is for the players to express themselves in a way that shows they have "won" the game. Note that this playstyle can totally "sim" a world. In fact, that can often be preferred, as the simulation gives players a solid foundation on how to overcome challenges. If we know fire works like fire does in the real life, then it's easy to harness that to our advantage. Knowing that "falling damage" will kill someone and is realistic, can help us achieve our goals or overcome certain challenges. I think the height of Step On Up play is a sandbox old school D&D campaign where the players are actively choosing challenges and using their XP as a judge of how far they've gone. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Right to Dream</strong> ("sim") has nothing to do with "simming a world". What is actually important is simulating an experience. I look at a game like Call of Cthulhu, almost a perfect example of RtD or "sim", as a game heavily supporting Right to Dream. The goal of play isn't to necessarily overcome the challenges and "save the day" (Who saves the day against Cthulhu? No one.) The goal is in fact to reflect Lovecraftian fiction. We want our character to solve the crime, realize some terrible truth and go mad. That's how the fiction usually goes. If our character solved the crime, realized the truth, and killed Cthulhu saving mankind, it would kind of be a disservice to the game. Or, if we never solved the crime... there really is no game. Our goal in Right to Dream is to "simulate" what a world, setting, fiction, or genre is about. That doesn't mean it has to be "realistic", right? I mean, Feng Shui is gonzo as heck. But, you're not simulating reality. You're simulating kung fu movies and <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />. We're not trying to use our characters to really overcome a challenge. We're wanting to see them do their crazy kung fu stuff. 4E usually has this sort of feel to it. I see it a lot when people talk about making their game more "cinematic". 4E isn't really about the players "winning" the game in a lot of ways. Instead, it's about seeing the character portray these "action heroes" that go through challenges and twists and turns and ultimately save the day (the reverse of CoC). In most respects, we know the outcome of Right to Dream. We know if we're playing Star Wars the rebels will be outmatched, go through turmoil and ultimately save the day against the Sith (if we're playing it to "sim" Star Wars of course). </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Story Now</strong> ("narrativism") is basically just like Step On Up, except we're not playing to overcome challenges. Instead, we're playing to explore a theme and characters. We don't really know how it might turn out (like Step On Up - where you might "win or lose"). We resolve that in play. We play to "find out what happens". Only, we don't care if the players win or lose. Instead, our goal is to tell a story and develop characters. In this type of game, my character might need to die in order to enhance the game. Not because that's how it's supposed to happen (Right to Dream) or because I played poorly (Step On Up), but because it made the most sense right there for the story or theme. Note we can "sim" reality in this game style too. I want to set this game in 1920s "Boardwalk Empire" setting or something. We're exploring the whole concept of prohibition and its effects on us. And, of course we want everything to make sense and feel "real" in that sense. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p>While I firmly believe that system is important and can help us achieve these goals - most people wanting "Story Now" might not be happy with B/X D&D - I also think you can totally play with any of these styles using nearly any system if you want. You may have to drift the system, but it's possible. That's because like @<u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=27160" target="_blank">Balesir</a></u> said, these sort of things are achieved in play, not outside of it. </p><p></p><p>Let's take a simple example: some people throw the XP system out of D&D. They just level up the PCs "when it feels right" or "when it makes sense for the story" or "at the end of each session" or whatever. What? If I'm playing for Step On Up, I want to level when I earn it. I want it tied to victory conditions. </p><p></p><p>So, why do they do this? It's because they have different goals. They don't care about winning their levels. But, it has nothing to do with simulating "reality". It's totally Right to Dream (simulationism) if we're simulating a "cinematic globe-trotting heroic action story where the characters have to tough it out, but get more powerful as time goes on, facing crazier challenges on crazier set pieces, and will ultimately win the day but we're not sure how!" And, of course, we abandon anything that gets in the way of, or detracts from this. </p><p></p><p>Another example might include how the "dice" turn out. So, the fight was "too hard" or "too easy" - not because as a DM I messed up in planning really - but because the dice went against the players. I rolled three crits in a row and they're rolling <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />. But, this fight... well, it wasn't supposed to really challenge them. And, they won't see the cool BBEG fight I had prepped for tonight if they die... So, I fudge it, right? Of course I do. I shave off some damage and "Oops!" forgot to roll for that recharge. Because why? Because the whole point of the game is to see the PCs kick these dudes asses, get to the BBEG and save the day. </p><p></p><p>Granted, I don't really fudge dice at <em>my table</em>. I let the dice fall where they may and in 90% of cases roll out in the open. But, that's because we're playing Step On Up and the dice are important arbiters to the game. And yet, you'll find people all the time giving advice to fudge the game. Hell, even WotC said this recently. I can't find the article now, but of course they did. And, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But, it most certainly can be depending on your goals for the game. </p><p></p><p>Eh. Didn't mean for this post to become a novella! Yikes! Sorry about that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="P1NBACK, post: 5881826, member: 83768"] Andor, it's perfectly reasonable to be confused about it. There's a big reason "GNS" was replaced by the Big Model (Right to Dream, Story Now, Step On Up), and I presume it's because people bastardized "simulationism" and "gamism" and whatnot to mean something else. I didn't "grok" simulationism for the longest time. I thought, as you do, that simulationism meant "simulating" the world or whatever. Most people on this forum use it that way. That's fine. But, when people are talking about Right to Dream and Step On Up, that's not what it means at all. So, here's my take on defining each:[INDENT][B]Step On Up[/B] ("gamism") is focused on players coming to the table expecting a challenge and the goal of the session is to see if they can overcome the challenge or not. This method often has scoring and victory conditions (short or long term), which may be overt or subtle (bragging rights). But, ultimately the goal is for the players to express themselves in a way that shows they have "won" the game. Note that this playstyle can totally "sim" a world. In fact, that can often be preferred, as the simulation gives players a solid foundation on how to overcome challenges. If we know fire works like fire does in the real life, then it's easy to harness that to our advantage. Knowing that "falling damage" will kill someone and is realistic, can help us achieve our goals or overcome certain challenges. I think the height of Step On Up play is a sandbox old school D&D campaign where the players are actively choosing challenges and using their XP as a judge of how far they've gone. [/INDENT][INDENT][B]Right to Dream[/B] ("sim") has nothing to do with "simming a world". What is actually important is simulating an experience. I look at a game like Call of Cthulhu, almost a perfect example of RtD or "sim", as a game heavily supporting Right to Dream. The goal of play isn't to necessarily overcome the challenges and "save the day" (Who saves the day against Cthulhu? No one.) The goal is in fact to reflect Lovecraftian fiction. We want our character to solve the crime, realize some terrible truth and go mad. That's how the fiction usually goes. If our character solved the crime, realized the truth, and killed Cthulhu saving mankind, it would kind of be a disservice to the game. Or, if we never solved the crime... there really is no game. Our goal in Right to Dream is to "simulate" what a world, setting, fiction, or genre is about. That doesn't mean it has to be "realistic", right? I mean, Feng Shui is gonzo as heck. But, you're not simulating reality. You're simulating kung fu movies and :):):):). We're not trying to use our characters to really overcome a challenge. We're wanting to see them do their crazy kung fu stuff. 4E usually has this sort of feel to it. I see it a lot when people talk about making their game more "cinematic". 4E isn't really about the players "winning" the game in a lot of ways. Instead, it's about seeing the character portray these "action heroes" that go through challenges and twists and turns and ultimately save the day (the reverse of CoC). In most respects, we know the outcome of Right to Dream. We know if we're playing Star Wars the rebels will be outmatched, go through turmoil and ultimately save the day against the Sith (if we're playing it to "sim" Star Wars of course). [/INDENT][INDENT][B]Story Now[/B] ("narrativism") is basically just like Step On Up, except we're not playing to overcome challenges. Instead, we're playing to explore a theme and characters. We don't really know how it might turn out (like Step On Up - where you might "win or lose"). We resolve that in play. We play to "find out what happens". Only, we don't care if the players win or lose. Instead, our goal is to tell a story and develop characters. In this type of game, my character might need to die in order to enhance the game. Not because that's how it's supposed to happen (Right to Dream) or because I played poorly (Step On Up), but because it made the most sense right there for the story or theme. Note we can "sim" reality in this game style too. I want to set this game in 1920s "Boardwalk Empire" setting or something. We're exploring the whole concept of prohibition and its effects on us. And, of course we want everything to make sense and feel "real" in that sense. [/INDENT]While I firmly believe that system is important and can help us achieve these goals - most people wanting "Story Now" might not be happy with B/X D&D - I also think you can totally play with any of these styles using nearly any system if you want. You may have to drift the system, but it's possible. That's because like @[U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=27160"]Balesir[/URL][/U] said, these sort of things are achieved in play, not outside of it. Let's take a simple example: some people throw the XP system out of D&D. They just level up the PCs "when it feels right" or "when it makes sense for the story" or "at the end of each session" or whatever. What? If I'm playing for Step On Up, I want to level when I earn it. I want it tied to victory conditions. So, why do they do this? It's because they have different goals. They don't care about winning their levels. But, it has nothing to do with simulating "reality". It's totally Right to Dream (simulationism) if we're simulating a "cinematic globe-trotting heroic action story where the characters have to tough it out, but get more powerful as time goes on, facing crazier challenges on crazier set pieces, and will ultimately win the day but we're not sure how!" And, of course, we abandon anything that gets in the way of, or detracts from this. Another example might include how the "dice" turn out. So, the fight was "too hard" or "too easy" - not because as a DM I messed up in planning really - but because the dice went against the players. I rolled three crits in a row and they're rolling :):):):). But, this fight... well, it wasn't supposed to really challenge them. And, they won't see the cool BBEG fight I had prepped for tonight if they die... So, I fudge it, right? Of course I do. I shave off some damage and "Oops!" forgot to roll for that recharge. Because why? Because the whole point of the game is to see the PCs kick these dudes asses, get to the BBEG and save the day. Granted, I don't really fudge dice at [I]my table[/I]. I let the dice fall where they may and in 90% of cases roll out in the open. But, that's because we're playing Step On Up and the dice are important arbiters to the game. And yet, you'll find people all the time giving advice to fudge the game. Hell, even WotC said this recently. I can't find the article now, but of course they did. And, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But, it most certainly can be depending on your goals for the game. Eh. Didn't mean for this post to become a novella! Yikes! Sorry about that. [/QUOTE]
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