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BadWrongFun: how far is too far??
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6341855" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I'd never write that. I would say that if you judge someone else's table, prepare to graciously accept an equal degree of criticism directed at what you do.</p><p></p><p>While everyone has a right to do what they want and to play how they want, not every thing you could choose to do is artful, mature, moral, or maximizes the fun for everyone. It's perfectly acceptable and even desirable to discuss methodology for achieving the best possible play, keeping in mind that any really well thought out methodology will be able to adapt to the special interests of every table.</p><p></p><p>I think that like many simple memes, the 'badwrongfun' meme gets repeated until people no longer remember want the original longer thought actually was. 'Badwrongfun' refers to people telling someone else they are doing it wrong, despite the fact that everyone at the table is happy with the play. At some level, insisting that everyone is wrong despite the fact that they must be doing something right involves a fallacy.</p><p></p><p>But even then, we could probably find exceptions. If we were to find a table using RP to live out rape fantasies, or playing a game that glamorized real world racist philosophies, or generally where a line was crossed between fantasy and reality to blur the distinction (live action RPGs involving actually attacking strangers), we might be inclined to rightly condemn that as "fun for you, but bad and wrong nonetheless".</p><p></p><p>But conversely...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This should only bother us if we think that not everyone at the table is happy with the existing affairs, that this isn't really what everyone wants, and that the table is 'settling' for less fun than it could be having. If everyone is perfectly content, then claiming that any of the above is 'badwrongfun' is precisely correct for the meme. Maybe the group loves aggressive DM vs. player competitive play. Who are we to judge that? If all the group wants to do is play 'Tomb of Horrors' and 'Mud Sorcerer's Tomb' and similar tournament style competitive scenarios with hard railroading, then I think we ought to try to be sympathetic to that. If the group wants to ban every race but Kender and have an all Kender campaign, if everyone is having fun who are we to judge? If the groups primary aesthetic of play is sensation, and what they really want is the experience of being narrated through a beautiful story with little input in the stories direction, then as long as they are having fun who are we to judge that? It is their table!.</p><p></p><p>Moral considerations aside, the only game that is wrong is one where not everyone is having fun. I think DMs need to be flexible not just to accommodate their group, but the individual player preferences. But, I also think that players need to be flexible to accommodate the preferences of the group that they find themselves in. If you are in a group that only plays 'Tomb of Horrors' style scenarios with massive body counts and highly competitive player vs. DM play, then I think you ought to roll up your sleeves and play that with the same or greater gusto than the rest of the table. Even if you feel that sort of play is a bit immature and the equivalent of being a picky eater that only eats fries, hot dogs, and cheese pizzas, if you can't enjoy fries, hot dogs, and cheese pizzas then by the same standards you are judging that table you yourself are just a snob and the problem isn't with the food they are eating but with you. If you want more out of your play in the long run, gradually introduce new 'flavors' to the group, but don't judge the group if they still in the end like fries, hot dogs, and cheese pizzas better.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>LOL. This is again blurring the line between reality and fantasy, one of the general ways that I think you can have real bad wrong 'fun'. But you know, on the whole this one doesn't seem to bad as long as everyone agreed to the game. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy. In this particular case, doing so in a way that precisely carries the most problematic aspects of play into the real world.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy. Although its probably less immoral to keep in game score on the basis of deer you shoot or bass you catch than it is to hit people with a baseball bat, this sort of competitive play is likely to result is poaching and relaxing gun safety rules and other illegal and likely dangerous behavior. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Err... what? No, this is 'badwrongfun', though I'm assuming from the position of this on the list and its incongruity with the rest of the list that you are joking.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6341855, member: 4937"] I'd never write that. I would say that if you judge someone else's table, prepare to graciously accept an equal degree of criticism directed at what you do. While everyone has a right to do what they want and to play how they want, not every thing you could choose to do is artful, mature, moral, or maximizes the fun for everyone. It's perfectly acceptable and even desirable to discuss methodology for achieving the best possible play, keeping in mind that any really well thought out methodology will be able to adapt to the special interests of every table. I think that like many simple memes, the 'badwrongfun' meme gets repeated until people no longer remember want the original longer thought actually was. 'Badwrongfun' refers to people telling someone else they are doing it wrong, despite the fact that everyone at the table is happy with the play. At some level, insisting that everyone is wrong despite the fact that they must be doing something right involves a fallacy. But even then, we could probably find exceptions. If we were to find a table using RP to live out rape fantasies, or playing a game that glamorized real world racist philosophies, or generally where a line was crossed between fantasy and reality to blur the distinction (live action RPGs involving actually attacking strangers), we might be inclined to rightly condemn that as "fun for you, but bad and wrong nonetheless". But conversely... This should only bother us if we think that not everyone at the table is happy with the existing affairs, that this isn't really what everyone wants, and that the table is 'settling' for less fun than it could be having. If everyone is perfectly content, then claiming that any of the above is 'badwrongfun' is precisely correct for the meme. Maybe the group loves aggressive DM vs. player competitive play. Who are we to judge that? If all the group wants to do is play 'Tomb of Horrors' and 'Mud Sorcerer's Tomb' and similar tournament style competitive scenarios with hard railroading, then I think we ought to try to be sympathetic to that. If the group wants to ban every race but Kender and have an all Kender campaign, if everyone is having fun who are we to judge? If the groups primary aesthetic of play is sensation, and what they really want is the experience of being narrated through a beautiful story with little input in the stories direction, then as long as they are having fun who are we to judge that? It is their table!. Moral considerations aside, the only game that is wrong is one where not everyone is having fun. I think DMs need to be flexible not just to accommodate their group, but the individual player preferences. But, I also think that players need to be flexible to accommodate the preferences of the group that they find themselves in. If you are in a group that only plays 'Tomb of Horrors' style scenarios with massive body counts and highly competitive player vs. DM play, then I think you ought to roll up your sleeves and play that with the same or greater gusto than the rest of the table. Even if you feel that sort of play is a bit immature and the equivalent of being a picky eater that only eats fries, hot dogs, and cheese pizzas, if you can't enjoy fries, hot dogs, and cheese pizzas then by the same standards you are judging that table you yourself are just a snob and the problem isn't with the food they are eating but with you. If you want more out of your play in the long run, gradually introduce new 'flavors' to the group, but don't judge the group if they still in the end like fries, hot dogs, and cheese pizzas better. LOL. This is again blurring the line between reality and fantasy, one of the general ways that I think you can have real bad wrong 'fun'. But you know, on the whole this one doesn't seem to bad as long as everyone agreed to the game. Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy. In this particular case, doing so in a way that precisely carries the most problematic aspects of play into the real world. Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy. Although its probably less immoral to keep in game score on the basis of deer you shoot or bass you catch than it is to hit people with a baseball bat, this sort of competitive play is likely to result is poaching and relaxing gun safety rules and other illegal and likely dangerous behavior. Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy. Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy. Again, blurring line between reality and fantasy. Err... what? No, this is 'badwrongfun', though I'm assuming from the position of this on the list and its incongruity with the rest of the list that you are joking. [/QUOTE]
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