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Balanced Race? Judge the 'Perfects'
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<blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 3623231" data-attributes="member: 7211"><p>Eh? <Scratches Head> If you are comparing characters can we compare a Human fighter 18/barbarian 2 and perfect fighter 18/barbarian 1? Seems more fair that way... (and we'll assume they both started as Barbarians). I'll assume elite arrays, as you did. The comparison comes out nearly the same if the perfect fighter goes 2 Barb/17 Fighter, but of course that 17th level is better off as something else.</p><p></p><p>H B2/F18</p><p>Base Ability Scores: 15 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, and 8 Cha (buffs Str 3 times, Con 1, Dex 1)</p><p>20th level Ability Scores: 18 Str, 15 Con, 14 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, 8 Cha (+magic)</p><p>BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5 (+str it is +24/+19/+14/+9)</p><p>Base HP: 1d12+18d10+40 (avg 145.5)</p><p>Base Saves: +16/+8/+7</p><p>Skill Points: (79), max ranks 24</p><p>Feats (8 general, 10 fighter)</p><p>Class Abilities: Rage 1/day, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement</p><p></p><p>P B1/F18</p><p>Base Ability Scores: 17 Str, 16 Con, 15 Dex, 14 Wis, 12 Int, and 10 Cha (buffs Str 3 times, and Dex 1)</p><p>20th level Ability Scores: 20 Str, 16 Con, 16 Dex, 14 Wis, 12 Int, 10 Cha (+magic)</p><p>BAB: +19/+14/+9/+4 (+str it is +24/+19/+14/+9)</p><p>Base HP: 18d10+73 (avg 172)</p><p>Base Saves: +16/+9/+8</p><p>Skill Points: (74), max ranks 23</p><p>Feats (8 general, 10 fighter)</p><p>Class Abilities: Rage 1/day, Fast Movement</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well in my comparison everything is fairly even. The perfect won't hit more often (unless they differ on magic items) though his AC may be higher (if he can use that extra dex he's got). His rage lasts 1 extra round and he has a handful of extra hp (1 additional hit from a high-level monster at best).</p><p></p><p>It seems to me that the perfect ftr/barb is tougher, can rage for a little longer, and has slightly better saves. Less skill points, but higher bonuses to them. By contrast the human fighter has uncanny dodge, an extra point of BAB (useful when BAB is important but STR is not added - ie: very rarely at 20th level). Basically, the class ability of Uncanny Dodge is the big difference (which the perfect could have picked up at the expense of a high-level fighter feat).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It seems, whether or not you did it intentionally, all the barbarian level did was show the disparity between a pure fighter and a fighter that dips for barb levels.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think 25 extra hp (at 20th level) and slightly better saves warrant a full level loss. If anything, that would definitely make the perfect a subpar choice. I do appreciate the time you took for your response though. While the perfect fighter vs human fighter comes out slightly ahead, the difference when it comes to casters is slightly in favor of the stock human (with an extra spell level).</p><p></p><p>Overall, it seems to me, that you would consider choosing perfect as your race if you were looking to make a skill-based character that also enjoys combat. You definitely dig all the bonuses to your skills from your generally high stats, which also make you slightly more proficient in combat than you should be. Fighters do come out slightly ahead (at high levels), but there are many easy examples of when you'd wish you were a stock human. For instance:</p><p></p><p>Human Brb2/Ftr 4, BAB: +6/+1</p><p>Perfect Brb1/Ftr4, BAB: +5</p><p></p><p>And every 6 levels after that you are still lagging on your iterative attack. At 20th it's a non-issue, but considering the game is beginning at level 1, I think it would be something to consider if you are playing a fighter for the long haul.</p><p></p><p>Anyone else want to take a crack at 'breaking' this race at LA +1?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Technik4, post: 3623231, member: 7211"] Eh? <Scratches Head> If you are comparing characters can we compare a Human fighter 18/barbarian 2 and perfect fighter 18/barbarian 1? Seems more fair that way... (and we'll assume they both started as Barbarians). I'll assume elite arrays, as you did. The comparison comes out nearly the same if the perfect fighter goes 2 Barb/17 Fighter, but of course that 17th level is better off as something else. H B2/F18 Base Ability Scores: 15 Str, 14 Con, 13 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, and 8 Cha (buffs Str 3 times, Con 1, Dex 1) 20th level Ability Scores: 18 Str, 15 Con, 14 Dex, 12 Wis, 10 Int, 8 Cha (+magic) BAB: +20/+15/+10/+5 (+str it is +24/+19/+14/+9) Base HP: 1d12+18d10+40 (avg 145.5) Base Saves: +16/+8/+7 Skill Points: (79), max ranks 24 Feats (8 general, 10 fighter) Class Abilities: Rage 1/day, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement P B1/F18 Base Ability Scores: 17 Str, 16 Con, 15 Dex, 14 Wis, 12 Int, and 10 Cha (buffs Str 3 times, and Dex 1) 20th level Ability Scores: 20 Str, 16 Con, 16 Dex, 14 Wis, 12 Int, 10 Cha (+magic) BAB: +19/+14/+9/+4 (+str it is +24/+19/+14/+9) Base HP: 18d10+73 (avg 172) Base Saves: +16/+9/+8 Skill Points: (74), max ranks 23 Feats (8 general, 10 fighter) Class Abilities: Rage 1/day, Fast Movement Well in my comparison everything is fairly even. The perfect won't hit more often (unless they differ on magic items) though his AC may be higher (if he can use that extra dex he's got). His rage lasts 1 extra round and he has a handful of extra hp (1 additional hit from a high-level monster at best). It seems to me that the perfect ftr/barb is tougher, can rage for a little longer, and has slightly better saves. Less skill points, but higher bonuses to them. By contrast the human fighter has uncanny dodge, an extra point of BAB (useful when BAB is important but STR is not added - ie: very rarely at 20th level). Basically, the class ability of Uncanny Dodge is the big difference (which the perfect could have picked up at the expense of a high-level fighter feat). It seems, whether or not you did it intentionally, all the barbarian level did was show the disparity between a pure fighter and a fighter that dips for barb levels. I don't think 25 extra hp (at 20th level) and slightly better saves warrant a full level loss. If anything, that would definitely make the perfect a subpar choice. I do appreciate the time you took for your response though. While the perfect fighter vs human fighter comes out slightly ahead, the difference when it comes to casters is slightly in favor of the stock human (with an extra spell level). Overall, it seems to me, that you would consider choosing perfect as your race if you were looking to make a skill-based character that also enjoys combat. You definitely dig all the bonuses to your skills from your generally high stats, which also make you slightly more proficient in combat than you should be. Fighters do come out slightly ahead (at high levels), but there are many easy examples of when you'd wish you were a stock human. For instance: Human Brb2/Ftr 4, BAB: +6/+1 Perfect Brb1/Ftr4, BAB: +5 And every 6 levels after that you are still lagging on your iterative attack. At 20th it's a non-issue, but considering the game is beginning at level 1, I think it would be something to consider if you are playing a fighter for the long haul. Anyone else want to take a crack at 'breaking' this race at LA +1? [/QUOTE]
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