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Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023
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<blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9212739" data-attributes="member: 7023840"><p>A few points on this. I think that this can easily be viewed at from the other perspective, as well. If 5e is so similar, then the existence of certain people (and you know who they are, because they exist on this forum) who have absolutely rejected 5e for abandoning the awesomeness of 4e is also inexplicable. And the simplest answer for this is the obvious one- people are not completely logical, are they? They do not have to play by the rules that we think make sense. In fact, I know that I am correct when I assume that you are not 100% coherent in all of your beliefs, for the simple reason that no person is. The unexamined life may not be worth living, and yet we all live it.</p><p></p><p>But let me provide an anecdote. I still remember going to a store and picking up a copy of the 4e DMG to leaf through it and see if I wanted to run it, and on the first page under what I needed to play, it said (for things that were <em>required</em>) that I needed a battle map and miniatures.</p><p></p><p>And I NOPED right on out at that point. Because I enjoy theater of the mind, and I was reading a book that was upfront telling me that the way I played was not welcome in that vision of D&D. Right at the start. But that's just me. </p><p></p><p>To very briefly make a point which I think is often lost- one of the great strengths of 4e was that it was incredibly prescriptive. It had a point of view, and it was telling you <em>how to play</em>. A lot of people loved the 4e DMG for just that reason . Again, because it had a point of view and was telling you how to play. We see people, today, who constantly say ... "I wish that the 5e DMG was like the 4e one, because it told you how to play!" </p><p></p><p>But 5e took the opposite approach. Basically, 5e is a whole lot of "whatever, man, it's all good." It didn't take a strong stand on anything. Which can make for a very frustrating experience for some. But it also allowed for people to read into it what they wanted. It's why you can look at 5e and see parts of 4e, while other players can look at it and read into it strong similarities with 2e. It reflects back what people <em>want </em>to see. </p><p></p><p>Basically, you're looking in a mirror and trying to say, "Why don't you see me?" And other people are confused, because when they look at that mirror, they're saying, "Brah, chill. That's not you. That's me."</p><p></p><p>The reason I find the whole conversation unenlightening is this- 5e isn't 4e. It's also not 3e or TSR-era D&D. It's its own thing. At this point, the vast majority of people that are playing it are people that are brand-new to the game and the hobby. While this forum (in terms of active posters) certainly skews older, that's not representative of the large number of people who play 5e today. </p><p></p><p>They don't care about these types of things. If you want to know why people didn't play 4e, or why they did play 4e, you can ask them, and accept their answers. Or not! But trying to "logic them" at this point is not going to work. I mean ... has it?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Snarf Zagyg, post: 9212739, member: 7023840"] A few points on this. I think that this can easily be viewed at from the other perspective, as well. If 5e is so similar, then the existence of certain people (and you know who they are, because they exist on this forum) who have absolutely rejected 5e for abandoning the awesomeness of 4e is also inexplicable. And the simplest answer for this is the obvious one- people are not completely logical, are they? They do not have to play by the rules that we think make sense. In fact, I know that I am correct when I assume that you are not 100% coherent in all of your beliefs, for the simple reason that no person is. The unexamined life may not be worth living, and yet we all live it. But let me provide an anecdote. I still remember going to a store and picking up a copy of the 4e DMG to leaf through it and see if I wanted to run it, and on the first page under what I needed to play, it said (for things that were [I]required[/I]) that I needed a battle map and miniatures. And I NOPED right on out at that point. Because I enjoy theater of the mind, and I was reading a book that was upfront telling me that the way I played was not welcome in that vision of D&D. Right at the start. But that's just me. To very briefly make a point which I think is often lost- one of the great strengths of 4e was that it was incredibly prescriptive. It had a point of view, and it was telling you [I]how to play[/I]. A lot of people loved the 4e DMG for just that reason . Again, because it had a point of view and was telling you how to play. We see people, today, who constantly say ... "I wish that the 5e DMG was like the 4e one, because it told you how to play!" But 5e took the opposite approach. Basically, 5e is a whole lot of "whatever, man, it's all good." It didn't take a strong stand on anything. Which can make for a very frustrating experience for some. But it also allowed for people to read into it what they wanted. It's why you can look at 5e and see parts of 4e, while other players can look at it and read into it strong similarities with 2e. It reflects back what people [I]want [/I]to see. Basically, you're looking in a mirror and trying to say, "Why don't you see me?" And other people are confused, because when they look at that mirror, they're saying, "Brah, chill. That's not you. That's me." The reason I find the whole conversation unenlightening is this- 5e isn't 4e. It's also not 3e or TSR-era D&D. It's its own thing. At this point, the vast majority of people that are playing it are people that are brand-new to the game and the hobby. While this forum (in terms of active posters) certainly skews older, that's not representative of the large number of people who play 5e today. They don't care about these types of things. If you want to know why people didn't play 4e, or why they did play 4e, you can ask them, and accept their answers. Or not! But trying to "logic them" at this point is not going to work. I mean ... has it? [/QUOTE]
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