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<blockquote data-quote="Steverooo" data-source="post: 2701534" data-attributes="member: 9410"><p><strong>Some Thoughts of Mine:</strong></p><p></p><p>I have to agree, the Mongoose comments should have been edited out... 'nuff said. Peace!</p><p></p><p>The book sounds good, I might buy it and read it. (I think I'm a good player, but while some agree, others disagree.) Anyway...</p><p></p><p>I think, even though this is a PLAYER'S book, that a section on "Dealing With Problem Players" is called for! "Whiners" whine for one of two reasons: either A) They want something, or B) They don't want something. In either case, it seems easier, to me, to find out WHY they're whining, and see what can be done about it. Again, this IS something that the players can help the GM with! Leaving the GM to handle "the jerk" puts more strain on him, and ignores the power of peer-pressure.</p><p></p><p>In a group where I was an officer, we had some occasional problems with someone in the audience berating the President, while he was trying to run a meeting. Even after the President had answered his question, the guy kept interjecting, repeating his original objections (which had already been answered). The President later suggested that, in future cases like that, that someone else in the audience should jump in, and "take the floor" from the objecter, pointing out that this topic had already been addressed... This seems to work better than vain repetition, or trying to ignore the objecter.</p><p></p><p>PCs can do the same thing with problem players, as well. After the GM has heard them out, and answered them, if they start up the same objections, again, the other players can say "Dude, you already said that! The GM said no. Move on!" After two or three other players have said this, the whiner will probably realize that it aint working, this time, and move along. Do it often enough, and they'll either learn, or leave.</p><p></p><p>As an example of a "Whiner", and why he "whines", it has always bothered me how <em>unheroically unskilled</em> my PCs often are... so much so that I have written several pieces to help "fix" these perceived problems, even getting a couple of them published. One of these was "Tracking: It's More Than Just 'Duh! Deh Went Dattaway!'" Another was on Background Skills.</p><p></p><p>Another "whine" of mine is that I like to play Stealthy, Perceptive characters, especially woodsmen. Outdoorsmen, survivalists, somebody who is at home in any terrain, and who can do anything I see in a survival manual... The problem is, the rules don't allow some of it! I can't play a Ranger who sets snares and traps!</p><p></p><p>Why? Because any trap has a CR, and the DMG states that it takes 1,000 GP and one WEEK of work per point of CR to make a trap!</p><p></p><p>Now if my PC were trying to build a bear trap, out in the wilderness, I could see that... but a simple snare? Even a complex snare? A covered pit (with or without sharpened stakes in the bottom)? A limb-trap? A net trap?</p><p></p><p>A (mechanically) simple snare takes about six to 10 seconds to set. It's about DC:2. The VERY FIRST TIME I set a complex (dangle, strangle) snare, when I wasn't sure what I was doing, it took me less than 15 minutes. I argue that this is an integral part of the Ranger's ability to "Find food and water in the wild" DC:10 Survival skill (which ordinarily takes 1/2 day, or about eight hours -- plenty of time to set a trapline). A Ranger (or a Barbarian, or a Druid, or anyone else with Survival or Craft (Trapmaking) skill) should be able to do this. Craft (Trapmaking) is there for the Rogues and Bards, and other interested PCs without access to Survival.</p><p></p><p>Look at the description of the <em>Detect Snares and Pits</em> spell... Snares, deadfalls, and pits are specifically mentioned, there, as being easier to detect than the standard mechanical or magical traps. Likewise, they should be easier to set, too. Call them "CR 0", and allow them to be set in a relatively short amount of time (1D20 minutes or less, depending upon complexity). This gives the PCs a few new options for defending their bases, and the bad guys can do it, too...</p><p></p><p>"Okay, you guys trailed the Orcs with Fred's wife into the forest, and now are coming out of it, near the mountains. You see some caves, ahead, but can't tell if the tracks lead into one, from here. Everyone roll your Spot checks..."</p><p></p><p>Fred: "I got the highest, rolled an 18, total."</p><p></p><p>"You can't see, from here. What do you want to do?"</p><p></p><p>Jerry: "We follow the tracks, weapons ready."</p><p></p><p>"Same order?"</p><p></p><p>Jerry: "Yeah!"</p><p></p><p><em>GM looks at marching order.</em> "Okay, Fred, Jerry, make two Reflex saves, please!"</p><p></p><p>Tom: "Oh, no! Do we hear a <em>Fireball</em>? What do we see?"</p><p></p><p>"Nothing... yet!"</p><p></p><p>Fred: "A 19... and a four... Oops! What happens to my PC?"</p><p></p><p>"You step on something, which quickly slithers out from under your feet. You see something moving in a tree, nearby... Jerry? What did you roll?"</p><p></p><p>Jerry: "An eight, and a 12! What happens?"</p><p></p><p>"You all see Jerry's PC yanked up, off his feet, flipped upside-down, and whisked through the air, swinging from a rope around one ankle. He slams into a nearby tree, where he is impaled by a couple of sharpened tree limb stubs! You take 2D6 damage, for... (rolls) seven points of damage, and are now hanging upside-down, by one leg. Roll to see if you retained your weapon!"</p><p></p><p>So, maybe sometime you WANT to listen to a "Whiner", huh? Take a page from their notes, when they know what they're talking about, and use them...</p><p></p><p>More on other "Problem Players", later...</p><p></p><p> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Steverooo, post: 2701534, member: 9410"] [b]Some Thoughts of Mine:[/b] I have to agree, the Mongoose comments should have been edited out... 'nuff said. Peace! The book sounds good, I might buy it and read it. (I think I'm a good player, but while some agree, others disagree.) Anyway... I think, even though this is a PLAYER'S book, that a section on "Dealing With Problem Players" is called for! "Whiners" whine for one of two reasons: either A) They want something, or B) They don't want something. In either case, it seems easier, to me, to find out WHY they're whining, and see what can be done about it. Again, this IS something that the players can help the GM with! Leaving the GM to handle "the jerk" puts more strain on him, and ignores the power of peer-pressure. In a group where I was an officer, we had some occasional problems with someone in the audience berating the President, while he was trying to run a meeting. Even after the President had answered his question, the guy kept interjecting, repeating his original objections (which had already been answered). The President later suggested that, in future cases like that, that someone else in the audience should jump in, and "take the floor" from the objecter, pointing out that this topic had already been addressed... This seems to work better than vain repetition, or trying to ignore the objecter. PCs can do the same thing with problem players, as well. After the GM has heard them out, and answered them, if they start up the same objections, again, the other players can say "Dude, you already said that! The GM said no. Move on!" After two or three other players have said this, the whiner will probably realize that it aint working, this time, and move along. Do it often enough, and they'll either learn, or leave. As an example of a "Whiner", and why he "whines", it has always bothered me how [I]unheroically unskilled[/I] my PCs often are... so much so that I have written several pieces to help "fix" these perceived problems, even getting a couple of them published. One of these was "Tracking: It's More Than Just 'Duh! Deh Went Dattaway!'" Another was on Background Skills. Another "whine" of mine is that I like to play Stealthy, Perceptive characters, especially woodsmen. Outdoorsmen, survivalists, somebody who is at home in any terrain, and who can do anything I see in a survival manual... The problem is, the rules don't allow some of it! I can't play a Ranger who sets snares and traps! Why? Because any trap has a CR, and the DMG states that it takes 1,000 GP and one WEEK of work per point of CR to make a trap! Now if my PC were trying to build a bear trap, out in the wilderness, I could see that... but a simple snare? Even a complex snare? A covered pit (with or without sharpened stakes in the bottom)? A limb-trap? A net trap? A (mechanically) simple snare takes about six to 10 seconds to set. It's about DC:2. The VERY FIRST TIME I set a complex (dangle, strangle) snare, when I wasn't sure what I was doing, it took me less than 15 minutes. I argue that this is an integral part of the Ranger's ability to "Find food and water in the wild" DC:10 Survival skill (which ordinarily takes 1/2 day, or about eight hours -- plenty of time to set a trapline). A Ranger (or a Barbarian, or a Druid, or anyone else with Survival or Craft (Trapmaking) skill) should be able to do this. Craft (Trapmaking) is there for the Rogues and Bards, and other interested PCs without access to Survival. Look at the description of the [I]Detect Snares and Pits[/I] spell... Snares, deadfalls, and pits are specifically mentioned, there, as being easier to detect than the standard mechanical or magical traps. Likewise, they should be easier to set, too. Call them "CR 0", and allow them to be set in a relatively short amount of time (1D20 minutes or less, depending upon complexity). This gives the PCs a few new options for defending their bases, and the bad guys can do it, too... "Okay, you guys trailed the Orcs with Fred's wife into the forest, and now are coming out of it, near the mountains. You see some caves, ahead, but can't tell if the tracks lead into one, from here. Everyone roll your Spot checks..." Fred: "I got the highest, rolled an 18, total." "You can't see, from here. What do you want to do?" Jerry: "We follow the tracks, weapons ready." "Same order?" Jerry: "Yeah!" [I]GM looks at marching order.[/I] "Okay, Fred, Jerry, make two Reflex saves, please!" Tom: "Oh, no! Do we hear a [I]Fireball[/I]? What do we see?" "Nothing... yet!" Fred: "A 19... and a four... Oops! What happens to my PC?" "You step on something, which quickly slithers out from under your feet. You see something moving in a tree, nearby... Jerry? What did you roll?" Jerry: "An eight, and a 12! What happens?" "You all see Jerry's PC yanked up, off his feet, flipped upside-down, and whisked through the air, swinging from a rope around one ankle. He slams into a nearby tree, where he is impaled by a couple of sharpened tree limb stubs! You take 2D6 damage, for... (rolls) seven points of damage, and are now hanging upside-down, by one leg. Roll to see if you retained your weapon!" So, maybe sometime you WANT to listen to a "Whiner", huh? Take a page from their notes, when they know what they're talking about, and use them... More on other "Problem Players", later... :D [/QUOTE]
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