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Bladesinger - a criticism of its design
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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7258701" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>I know what you mean about being a threat. Remember that we are having the giants refuse to move in order to avoid the BB damage. If they move, they'll quickly find they can't afford to ignore the BS. I playtested an offensive Champion and the problem is that they get taken out too easily by the giants. Can you identify what build offers parity (also noting the irony of searching for a martial Champion build that has tanking <em>parity</em> with a Wizard!)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay, there seems to be some miscommunication. The test case for my playtests (and now, PDFs) is <strong>16, 15, 13, 12, 10, 9</strong>. (The only really relevant values are the 16, 15 and 12 of course.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Neither of the campaigns I'm in are using the option. Or rather, they're both offering the option as an option and players are without exception going with the standard method.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The comparison is a <em>relative</em> one. The argument isn't that BS is never pressed for resources, but that <em>relative</em> to the other options, BS is ahead. Being stronger doesn't mean being invincible, and BS is stronger.</p><p></p><p></p><p>In my summary, I used the numbers for the test case. So the conclusions hold.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You know, this makes me realise we have different ideas of what wizardry means. I think it means having spells left over for utility after dealing with the day's encounters, which so far BS seems to do a better job of than Diviner. Do you have a different definition?</p><p></p><p>I guess you can't mean that wizardry is simply using spells to safely resolve encounters, because BS does that. So what do you mean by <strong>wizardry</strong>?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree with you and retract my suggestion that they are okay. They're both thoroughly broken. I didn't realise how much by until I did these tests. Yes, absent these cantrips the picture changes, and it might be that fixing BS involves taking away these cantrips. But that is moving the goal posts, because these cantrips are part of the game and BS can use them. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Why is our party forbidden a Battlemaster? I'm not sure I understand the reason for that.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you agree that Hill Giants have atypical attack modifiers (+8) for their CR, and that by the guidelines BS should not be fighting Giants below level 5?</p><p></p><p></p><p>First of all, they don't. You've never shown that. And the party with a Wizard with another Arcane Tradition uses more resources.</p><p></p><p>I think we could show that an all Battlemaster SS/CEx party is more broken than a BS, but I'm not arguing that nothing else is imba in 5e. I'm arguing that BS out-tanks martials while still being a full wizard.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What is another Arcane Tradition using that slot on, that is more effective and efficient?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, this is a relative argument. BS is stronger than the alternatives, not invulnerable.</p><p></p><p></p><p>To reiterate, I'm not using those high stats. I don't understand why a party shouldn't use their spells to fight effectively? Is your measure - must have all spells left at the end of the day?</p><p> </p><p></p><p>And yet, that isn't what I am saying. We can give Champion those same stats and BS still out-tanks them. If you know a better tank - propose it and let's get onto analysing that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7258701, member: 71699"] I know what you mean about being a threat. Remember that we are having the giants refuse to move in order to avoid the BB damage. If they move, they'll quickly find they can't afford to ignore the BS. I playtested an offensive Champion and the problem is that they get taken out too easily by the giants. Can you identify what build offers parity (also noting the irony of searching for a martial Champion build that has tanking [I]parity[/I] with a Wizard!) Okay, there seems to be some miscommunication. The test case for my playtests (and now, PDFs) is [B]16, 15, 13, 12, 10, 9[/B]. (The only really relevant values are the 16, 15 and 12 of course.) Neither of the campaigns I'm in are using the option. Or rather, they're both offering the option as an option and players are without exception going with the standard method. The comparison is a [I]relative[/I] one. The argument isn't that BS is never pressed for resources, but that [I]relative[/I] to the other options, BS is ahead. Being stronger doesn't mean being invincible, and BS is stronger. In my summary, I used the numbers for the test case. So the conclusions hold. You know, this makes me realise we have different ideas of what wizardry means. I think it means having spells left over for utility after dealing with the day's encounters, which so far BS seems to do a better job of than Diviner. Do you have a different definition? I guess you can't mean that wizardry is simply using spells to safely resolve encounters, because BS does that. So what do you mean by [B]wizardry[/B]? I agree with you and retract my suggestion that they are okay. They're both thoroughly broken. I didn't realise how much by until I did these tests. Yes, absent these cantrips the picture changes, and it might be that fixing BS involves taking away these cantrips. But that is moving the goal posts, because these cantrips are part of the game and BS can use them. Why is our party forbidden a Battlemaster? I'm not sure I understand the reason for that. Do you agree that Hill Giants have atypical attack modifiers (+8) for their CR, and that by the guidelines BS should not be fighting Giants below level 5? First of all, they don't. You've never shown that. And the party with a Wizard with another Arcane Tradition uses more resources. I think we could show that an all Battlemaster SS/CEx party is more broken than a BS, but I'm not arguing that nothing else is imba in 5e. I'm arguing that BS out-tanks martials while still being a full wizard. What is another Arcane Tradition using that slot on, that is more effective and efficient? Again, this is a relative argument. BS is stronger than the alternatives, not invulnerable. To reiterate, I'm not using those high stats. I don't understand why a party shouldn't use their spells to fight effectively? Is your measure - must have all spells left at the end of the day? And yet, that isn't what I am saying. We can give Champion those same stats and BS still out-tanks them. If you know a better tank - propose it and let's get onto analysing that. [/QUOTE]
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