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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7665940" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I refuse to view life through a lens of politics. While it is I guess in some sense true that World of Darkness encodes for modern "left-wing" values simply because the writers held these values in a sort of stereotypical way - back in the '90's a book buyer I knew hated to call World of Darkness because, as he put it, "you could smell the smoke hanging in the air all the way through the phone." But even so, I don't think you can simplify the World of Darkness down to "alienation from self" nor can I think you call something as generic as "alienation of the self" an inherently left-wing fear or experience. The very modern of the moment liberal politics of the writers show up in much more overt ways than that. </p><p></p><p>Still, "chaos" and "lawful" mean far more and have far more coherent definitions than "left-wing" and "right-wing". You might as well say that people really are "chaotic" or "lawful" as say they are "left-wing" and "right-wing". If you think alignment arguments are useless, perhaps you should try a mixed political forum and try to get agreement about what words like 'left-wing', 'right-wing', 'liberal', and 'conservative' mean. I assure you, no alignment discussion every generated as many contradictory opinions as you'll get regarding such words. 'Liberal' is particularly bad because the English word also has about a half-dozen unrelated meanings to its political meaning, and this fact is often not known to users of the word who will assume all uses of it refer to the same thing, and worse its political meaning has demonstrably changed radically over the course of its existence (and equally "conservative" means radically different things geographically, and is almost equally misused).</p><p></p><p>And you simplification of the horror of Lovecraft down to "fear of the alien" and "fear of societal destruction", and your equation of those fears and experiences with inherently "right-wing" is even more strained. For me, the big fears in Lovecraft are fear of Gödel's incompleteness theorem, fear of quantum spaces, fear of the big bang, fear of the heat death of the universe, fear of general relativity, fear of cosmological vastness, and the general fear that the faith of the Enlightenment that the world could be made sensible had ultimately shown through those very tools a world which was provably unknowable, alien, and incomprehensible. That's not an inherently left-wing or right-wing problem. And fear of the unknown is very much a human fear, and as such is inherently apolitical. It's not as if Lovecraft himself had any sort of easily classified political leaning, especially not in the trivial - and meaningless - way the words are used to refer to modern political parties.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7665940, member: 4937"] I refuse to view life through a lens of politics. While it is I guess in some sense true that World of Darkness encodes for modern "left-wing" values simply because the writers held these values in a sort of stereotypical way - back in the '90's a book buyer I knew hated to call World of Darkness because, as he put it, "you could smell the smoke hanging in the air all the way through the phone." But even so, I don't think you can simplify the World of Darkness down to "alienation from self" nor can I think you call something as generic as "alienation of the self" an inherently left-wing fear or experience. The very modern of the moment liberal politics of the writers show up in much more overt ways than that. Still, "chaos" and "lawful" mean far more and have far more coherent definitions than "left-wing" and "right-wing". You might as well say that people really are "chaotic" or "lawful" as say they are "left-wing" and "right-wing". If you think alignment arguments are useless, perhaps you should try a mixed political forum and try to get agreement about what words like 'left-wing', 'right-wing', 'liberal', and 'conservative' mean. I assure you, no alignment discussion every generated as many contradictory opinions as you'll get regarding such words. 'Liberal' is particularly bad because the English word also has about a half-dozen unrelated meanings to its political meaning, and this fact is often not known to users of the word who will assume all uses of it refer to the same thing, and worse its political meaning has demonstrably changed radically over the course of its existence (and equally "conservative" means radically different things geographically, and is almost equally misused). And you simplification of the horror of Lovecraft down to "fear of the alien" and "fear of societal destruction", and your equation of those fears and experiences with inherently "right-wing" is even more strained. For me, the big fears in Lovecraft are fear of Gödel's incompleteness theorem, fear of quantum spaces, fear of the big bang, fear of the heat death of the universe, fear of general relativity, fear of cosmological vastness, and the general fear that the faith of the Enlightenment that the world could be made sensible had ultimately shown through those very tools a world which was provably unknowable, alien, and incomprehensible. That's not an inherently left-wing or right-wing problem. And fear of the unknown is very much a human fear, and as such is inherently apolitical. It's not as if Lovecraft himself had any sort of easily classified political leaning, especially not in the trivial - and meaningless - way the words are used to refer to modern political parties. [/QUOTE]
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