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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7519620" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>But let me ask, if conjure elementals reached very similar danger beasties and had similar casting time etc yto call demons - then dont you end up with just two different flavors of the same spell? </p><p></p><p>Is it really *taking a different spell* if they produce almost identical outcomes?</p><p></p><p>I am not arguing for having two summons at the same level where one is clearly better, but a mechanical nose count comparison of "which is better for combat" is not gonna lead to a bigger spell lists, just a list of more spell names for the same small number of results, right?</p><p></p><p>To me (I agree that if the demon spell drawbacks dont come up it's too much better than the elemental ones ) I would want spells to differentiate between friendly summons and hostile summons much more than they do.</p><p></p><p>Hostile demon - short duration 1m - if three saves made its released. Orders take bonus actions.</p><p></p><p>Friendly elemental - duration 8 hours with concentration but when conc fails 1m left. Orders no action. Conc over or lapsed - release. Release let's demon choose for remaining time to do whatever it wants or ho jome.</p><p></p><p>With those setups, the elemental can be lower cr because its longer and more reliable without action drains. Casting time 1m no problem cuz it's long term.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7519620, member: 6919838"] But let me ask, if conjure elementals reached very similar danger beasties and had similar casting time etc yto call demons - then dont you end up with just two different flavors of the same spell? Is it really *taking a different spell* if they produce almost identical outcomes? I am not arguing for having two summons at the same level where one is clearly better, but a mechanical nose count comparison of "which is better for combat" is not gonna lead to a bigger spell lists, just a list of more spell names for the same small number of results, right? To me (I agree that if the demon spell drawbacks dont come up it's too much better than the elemental ones ) I would want spells to differentiate between friendly summons and hostile summons much more than they do. Hostile demon - short duration 1m - if three saves made its released. Orders take bonus actions. Friendly elemental - duration 8 hours with concentration but when conc fails 1m left. Orders no action. Conc over or lapsed - release. Release let's demon choose for remaining time to do whatever it wants or ho jome. With those setups, the elemental can be lower cr because its longer and more reliable without action drains. Casting time 1m no problem cuz it's long term. [/QUOTE]
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