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<blockquote data-quote="kigmatzomat" data-source="post: 3044794" data-attributes="member: 9254"><p>Yesterday my group ran some tests of the ToB character classes. My regular campaign is at 20th level so I'm concerned about the multiclassing aspects. With Initiator level = MA + 1/2 other levels, I figured we'd run some 10th level characters through combat since they have the kinds of maneuvers my players could acquire. </p><p></p><p>Net result: an incredibly entertaining session with multiple martial adepts creating a kind of "feedback loop" where they boosted eachother's damage output or defenses. At one point two crusaders had Iron Guard Glare going (-4 to anyone who attacks an adjacent ally, each), and the sword sage's Isle of Blades meant there was a <strong>lot</strong> of flanking. It was one of the most enjoyable <em>tactical</em> sessions I've been part of for quite some time. </p><p></p><p><strong>However,</strong> it did highlight some issues. The strikes (those maneuvers that do +6d6 or +100) limit you to 1 attack/round and if you miss it goes *poof.* Several of the maneuvers either augment crits or create sneak-attack situations that become quite useless around uncrittable creatures (elementals, undead, constructs, etc). Most Adepts are likely going to burn the majority of their feats, at least up to 10th level, on maneuver-type feats. This means that they really don't have much combat flexibility; disarming or grappling can slow some of them down. </p><p></p><p>Their damage output was also rather surprising as the 10th level characters generally managed to do 25-70pts of damage each, every round. The average was probably closer to 40 than 50 and would have been higher but one critical round the warblade went total Power Attack (+10) and managed to miss two out of three hits (his own strike missed as well as another attack granted by White Raven Tactics from one crusader, and a the third from the other crusader's Flanking Maneuver that finally landed).</p><p></p><p>I think that the Martial Adepts are a viable way to balance high level melees against high level mages. Casters have the advantage while fighting groups thanks to AE spells and have plenty of special effect spells for single targets (enervation, disintigrate, etc) plus the joy of battlefield control (flight, <em>wall</em> spells, summons, etc.). The trick comes into having something acceptable over the entire gaming spectrum.</p><p></p><p>Sorceror/wizard 1-4 sucks mostly. At around 5th level (fireball levell as we call it) they start getting some respect from the fighters since the caster can now nuke multiple foes with a reasonable amount of pain, albeit with a painfully thin magazine. At around 8th level, the casters have enough high level slots to dedicate to offensive spells that the low level slots are freed up for utility. Only the mage's frailty relative to the fighter makes it comparable since an 8th level mage can still be dropped by a crit from a raging 3rd level barbarian or even a 1st level fighter with a strength bow. A 12th level mage probably has enough defensive gear and/or spells to survive the inslaught and begins relying on the fighter to deal with the "nuisances" and by 20th level the mage is doing the bulk of the party's damage output with the fighters being a meat-wall more than an offensive threat. </p><p></p><p>Clerics usually fare pretty well due to their decent hp, BAB, & armor use even when out of spells and no one with a brain ever disregards the value of a rogue. Druids, non-shifter druids at least, require a bit more finesse and planning to play as effectively but shifter druids are a great thing IMO. Psions are living warheads and are balanced as long as the game tends to have more than one target that needs nuking.</p><p></p><p>Monks will probably not be bothered by the existence of the Adepts. Their focus tends to be either machine-gun attacks or "juggling" (e.g. grappling, tripping, disarming, etc) combined with some powerful defenses. The Martial adept is, for all intents and purposes, a European "martial artist" in the classic sense; they know they art of making war. It is <em>possible</em> that a Setting Sun-focused sword sage could start intruding on that turf but I doubt it. The monk's flurry of blows, speed, SR and supernatural abilities dovetail in pretty well with the martial adept. </p><p></p><p>Games that have warlocks, spirit shamen, scouts, and psions will probably merge well with the martial adepts. "Core Class" games won't fare as well, as the new adepts will likely dominate the battlefield tactics and start taking some of the shine away from the casters and making the classic melees look like girly-men. </p><p></p><p>My game, which is a primarily core class game, will allow them but as PrCs. I'm not horribly impressed with the epic feats for fighters and think the Martial Adepts will provide an excellent way for the melees to remain relevant without becoming casters. I'm not so sure if I'd be willing to introduce them into my game if it were at lower levels but it fits an itch I have right now. </p><p></p><p>YMMV.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="kigmatzomat, post: 3044794, member: 9254"] Yesterday my group ran some tests of the ToB character classes. My regular campaign is at 20th level so I'm concerned about the multiclassing aspects. With Initiator level = MA + 1/2 other levels, I figured we'd run some 10th level characters through combat since they have the kinds of maneuvers my players could acquire. Net result: an incredibly entertaining session with multiple martial adepts creating a kind of "feedback loop" where they boosted eachother's damage output or defenses. At one point two crusaders had Iron Guard Glare going (-4 to anyone who attacks an adjacent ally, each), and the sword sage's Isle of Blades meant there was a [b]lot[/b] of flanking. It was one of the most enjoyable [i]tactical[/i] sessions I've been part of for quite some time. [b]However,[/b] it did highlight some issues. The strikes (those maneuvers that do +6d6 or +100) limit you to 1 attack/round and if you miss it goes *poof.* Several of the maneuvers either augment crits or create sneak-attack situations that become quite useless around uncrittable creatures (elementals, undead, constructs, etc). Most Adepts are likely going to burn the majority of their feats, at least up to 10th level, on maneuver-type feats. This means that they really don't have much combat flexibility; disarming or grappling can slow some of them down. Their damage output was also rather surprising as the 10th level characters generally managed to do 25-70pts of damage each, every round. The average was probably closer to 40 than 50 and would have been higher but one critical round the warblade went total Power Attack (+10) and managed to miss two out of three hits (his own strike missed as well as another attack granted by White Raven Tactics from one crusader, and a the third from the other crusader's Flanking Maneuver that finally landed). I think that the Martial Adepts are a viable way to balance high level melees against high level mages. Casters have the advantage while fighting groups thanks to AE spells and have plenty of special effect spells for single targets (enervation, disintigrate, etc) plus the joy of battlefield control (flight, [i]wall[/i] spells, summons, etc.). The trick comes into having something acceptable over the entire gaming spectrum. Sorceror/wizard 1-4 sucks mostly. At around 5th level (fireball levell as we call it) they start getting some respect from the fighters since the caster can now nuke multiple foes with a reasonable amount of pain, albeit with a painfully thin magazine. At around 8th level, the casters have enough high level slots to dedicate to offensive spells that the low level slots are freed up for utility. Only the mage's frailty relative to the fighter makes it comparable since an 8th level mage can still be dropped by a crit from a raging 3rd level barbarian or even a 1st level fighter with a strength bow. A 12th level mage probably has enough defensive gear and/or spells to survive the inslaught and begins relying on the fighter to deal with the "nuisances" and by 20th level the mage is doing the bulk of the party's damage output with the fighters being a meat-wall more than an offensive threat. Clerics usually fare pretty well due to their decent hp, BAB, & armor use even when out of spells and no one with a brain ever disregards the value of a rogue. Druids, non-shifter druids at least, require a bit more finesse and planning to play as effectively but shifter druids are a great thing IMO. Psions are living warheads and are balanced as long as the game tends to have more than one target that needs nuking. Monks will probably not be bothered by the existence of the Adepts. Their focus tends to be either machine-gun attacks or "juggling" (e.g. grappling, tripping, disarming, etc) combined with some powerful defenses. The Martial adept is, for all intents and purposes, a European "martial artist" in the classic sense; they know they art of making war. It is [i]possible[/i] that a Setting Sun-focused sword sage could start intruding on that turf but I doubt it. The monk's flurry of blows, speed, SR and supernatural abilities dovetail in pretty well with the martial adept. Games that have warlocks, spirit shamen, scouts, and psions will probably merge well with the martial adepts. "Core Class" games won't fare as well, as the new adepts will likely dominate the battlefield tactics and start taking some of the shine away from the casters and making the classic melees look like girly-men. My game, which is a primarily core class game, will allow them but as PrCs. I'm not horribly impressed with the epic feats for fighters and think the Martial Adepts will provide an excellent way for the melees to remain relevant without becoming casters. I'm not so sure if I'd be willing to introduce them into my game if it were at lower levels but it fits an itch I have right now. YMMV. [/QUOTE]
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