Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Bow Bond: An Eldritch Knight’s Guide to Archery
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Morrus" data-source="post: 6707694" data-attributes="member: 1"><p><strong>Originally posted by MightyThokk:</strong></p><p></p><p>[h=4]Notes and Light Maths[/h]</p><p>Cantrips vs Weapon attacks needs to be commented on, specifically when you would want to use cantrips vs a weapon attack. The most likely cantrips you'll be considering are Ray of Frost or Shocking Grasp. Both scale up the same, 1-4 1d8; 5-10 2d8; 11-16 3d8; 17+ 4d8. Most of the time a fighters Multi-attack feature is going to overshadow this, but there are times to consider it.</p><p> </p><p>For the purposes of this exersise I'm going to assume Human with Crossbow Expert at 1, Sharpshooter at 4, 16 starting Dex and Int. Maxing Dex at 8th, maxing int at 14th. This is a spellcasting focused build. Pure theory crafting DPS, I wouldn't actually recomend that progression. </p><p> </p><p>So, Cantrips</p><p>Level 1 and 2: No Cantrips.</p><p>Level 3 and 4: +5 to hit, 1d8 damage and debuff. - Note, still have bonus action.</p><p> </p><p>Weapon</p><p>Level 1 to 3: +7 to hit, 1d6+3 damage, two attacks per round (action and Bonus action)</p><p>Level 4: +2 to hit; 1d6 +13 damage, two attacks per round (acion and Bonus action)</p><p> </p><p>So really at no time 1 to 4 would you throw a cantrip when you could be making a weapon attack. Also, you see the insanity of Crossbow Expert plus Sharpshooter at low levels. Sharpshooter, with its huge static damage bonus and accuracy penalty has crazy synergy with your team. Bless, Fairy Fire, any one granting Accuracy or Advantage to a Sharpshooter is going to make a DM cringe. </p><p> </p><p>Level 5 ; Multi attack vs 2d8, Multi Attack wins. However, if you're in a situation where you can make a single weapon attack *or* throw a cantrip (friendly mage throws haste?) :</p><p> </p><p>Cantrips</p><p>+6 to hit, 2d8 damage and debuff. - still have bonus action.</p><p> </p><p>Weapons</p><p>+3 to hit, 1d6+13. Triggers bonus action attack if you didn't use your action to multi-attack for some reason.</p><p> </p><p>So it depends. Didn't trigger your bonus action attack? Weapon attack, bonus attack. Really want to land the debuff? Cantrip. Accuracy buff running? Weapon attack. Best damage output depends on AC of target, Weapons do 16.5 per hit; Cantrips are 9 per hit. So 20 AC is essentially even, cantrips are 2.7 on average weapons are 2.4 average. 21 AC + Cantrips pull ahead by fractions. However its never more than 1. </p><p> </p><p>Level 6; Weapon users pick up another +1 to hit and damage, narrowing the accuracy gap to 2 points. </p><p> </p><p>Level 7: War Magic. Cantrips now trigger a bonus action attack. You already had that with Crossbow Expert when you Multi Attacked. Really this is only going to matter in rare tactical situations where casting a Utility Cantrip is more important than Multi-attacking.</p><p> </p><p>Level 8: Max Dex, Cantrips still +6 to hit and 2d8 damage; Weapon +5 to hit 1d6+15 damage. At no point ever would you attack with a Cantrip over a weapon unless landing the debuff was more important than damage.</p><p> </p><p>Level 9 and 10: Proficiency increase bonus to both Weapon and Cantrip accuracy at 9, a wash. </p><p> </p><p>Level 11 3d8 for Cantrips. 13.5 Average damage on a hit for Cantrips. 18.5 average damage on a hit for Hand Crossbow. Better accuracy favors Cantrips vs higher AC , but again, its a less than 1 point per round on average, Weapon damage pulls ahead at medium to low AC. </p><p> </p><p>Level 12 +2 Int and more Multi-attacks. At 13th you're going to be able to throw Haste yourself so you'll commonly have an action to burn on attacking where you can't multi-attack. This is where Cantrips are the strongest but again its only by 1 hit point per round vs Higer AC (23ish) targets. So, if you've picked up a +1 hand crossbow by 12th level, and it seems likely that you would have, there is no difference between Cantrip and Weapon damage in the situation that favors Cantrips the most. Weapon damage pulls ahead as AC drops or anytime you can Mult-attack. </p><p> </p><p>Level 14 +2 Int, more Cantrip accuracy so in some situations you're a tiny bit better off with Cantrips. Again not much more than a point or two. </p><p> </p><p>Level 17 4d8 so Cantrip average damage per hit is now 14. So as long as you've never found a magic Hand Crossbow Cantrips are a better shot because of Accuracy when you can't multi attack. Of course if you're 17th level and your fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, I have to ask, what did you do to piss off your DM? </p><p> </p><p>So there you go, Cantrips vs. Attacks. Cantrips are a tiny bit better at a limited range of levels, but only if you can't multi attack, and haven't found a magic weapon. And that is maxing out your int. So by dumping Int you give up 1 or 2 points of average damage per rounds at high levels, vs high ACs, if you haven't found a magic weapon. This is why you can dump Int as a EK. You're spending 9 attribuit points at char gen and giving up two feats (or other stat boosts) to pick up a situational damage boost, that goes away in most games as you'll have a magic weapon that pulls weapon damage even with Cantrips. In general this concept works for melee EKs too, there will be a few levels where Cantrip damage is fractionally better but Multi-attack wins. Polearm Master and Two-weapon Fighting Eks are pretty much the same as Crossbow Experts in that you have the bonus action attacks. Tanky-melee-Gishy builds without the bonus action attack will see more mileage from War Magic, but that isn't the focus of this guide.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong>Sub-guide S.A.D.gasm - Notes for Champion or <span style="color: skyblue"> Battlemaster </span> Ranged builds.</strong></p><p> </p><p>SAD - Single Attribute Dependancy is a beutiful thing. Ranged and Finesse fighter builds need Dex and nothing else. I focused on Eldritch Knights since they have the most mechanical choices, and most folks look at the EK and think "oh, I should max out Int too" and its really a concept choice to max Int, not a mechanical choice. Here are my quick notes on Champions and Battle Masters.</p><p> </p><p>Champions at 10th take <span style="color: skyblue"><strong>Defense</strong></span>, all the other non-spellcasting advice up above applies. </p><p> </p><p>Battle Masters are IMO better mechanically than Eldritch Knights. Take out all the spell-casting from above and toss in <strong>Martial Adept</strong> at mid or late levels. Crossbow builds <span style="color: gold"><strong>Trip</strong></span> and <span style="color: blue"><strong>Goading attack</strong></span>. Archers <span style="color: skyblue"><strong>Evasive Footwork</strong></span>, <span style="color: skyblue"><strong>Goading attack</strong></span> and <span style="color: blue"><strong>Push </strong>or<strong> Trip</strong></span>. </p><p> </p><p>Trip is so seriously good for handcrossbow builds. Your DM will hate you the first time you walk up to the BEG, fire off trip, give yourself advantage and proceded to Action Point - Multi-attack Nova and solo the BEG in a single round.</p><p> </p><p><strong>Warcaster</strong></p><p>Lots of comments on Warcaster, see below. IMO you'd take it for the OA it grants. Somantic components are a minor issue for an EK, in the absolute worse case scenario you're occasionally using your bonus action and the otherwise useless Weapon Bond ability to pick up the weapon you dropped to cast your spell.</p><p> </p><p><strong>Crossbow Expert</strong></p><p>My reading of Crossbow Expert is that you get the bonus action attack with one hand crossbow. Others disagree. Check with your DM before equiping a shield.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Morrus, post: 6707694, member: 1"] [B]Originally posted by MightyThokk:[/B] [h=4]Notes and Light Maths[/h] Cantrips vs Weapon attacks needs to be commented on, specifically when you would want to use cantrips vs a weapon attack. The most likely cantrips you'll be considering are Ray of Frost or Shocking Grasp. Both scale up the same, 1-4 1d8; 5-10 2d8; 11-16 3d8; 17+ 4d8. Most of the time a fighters Multi-attack feature is going to overshadow this, but there are times to consider it. For the purposes of this exersise I'm going to assume Human with Crossbow Expert at 1, Sharpshooter at 4, 16 starting Dex and Int. Maxing Dex at 8th, maxing int at 14th. This is a spellcasting focused build. Pure theory crafting DPS, I wouldn't actually recomend that progression. So, Cantrips Level 1 and 2: No Cantrips. Level 3 and 4: +5 to hit, 1d8 damage and debuff. - Note, still have bonus action. Weapon Level 1 to 3: +7 to hit, 1d6+3 damage, two attacks per round (action and Bonus action) Level 4: +2 to hit; 1d6 +13 damage, two attacks per round (acion and Bonus action) So really at no time 1 to 4 would you throw a cantrip when you could be making a weapon attack. Also, you see the insanity of Crossbow Expert plus Sharpshooter at low levels. Sharpshooter, with its huge static damage bonus and accuracy penalty has crazy synergy with your team. Bless, Fairy Fire, any one granting Accuracy or Advantage to a Sharpshooter is going to make a DM cringe. Level 5 ; Multi attack vs 2d8, Multi Attack wins. However, if you're in a situation where you can make a single weapon attack *or* throw a cantrip (friendly mage throws haste?) : Cantrips +6 to hit, 2d8 damage and debuff. - still have bonus action. Weapons +3 to hit, 1d6+13. Triggers bonus action attack if you didn't use your action to multi-attack for some reason. So it depends. Didn't trigger your bonus action attack? Weapon attack, bonus attack. Really want to land the debuff? Cantrip. Accuracy buff running? Weapon attack. Best damage output depends on AC of target, Weapons do 16.5 per hit; Cantrips are 9 per hit. So 20 AC is essentially even, cantrips are 2.7 on average weapons are 2.4 average. 21 AC + Cantrips pull ahead by fractions. However its never more than 1. Level 6; Weapon users pick up another +1 to hit and damage, narrowing the accuracy gap to 2 points. Level 7: War Magic. Cantrips now trigger a bonus action attack. You already had that with Crossbow Expert when you Multi Attacked. Really this is only going to matter in rare tactical situations where casting a Utility Cantrip is more important than Multi-attacking. Level 8: Max Dex, Cantrips still +6 to hit and 2d8 damage; Weapon +5 to hit 1d6+15 damage. At no point ever would you attack with a Cantrip over a weapon unless landing the debuff was more important than damage. Level 9 and 10: Proficiency increase bonus to both Weapon and Cantrip accuracy at 9, a wash. Level 11 3d8 for Cantrips. 13.5 Average damage on a hit for Cantrips. 18.5 average damage on a hit for Hand Crossbow. Better accuracy favors Cantrips vs higher AC , but again, its a less than 1 point per round on average, Weapon damage pulls ahead at medium to low AC. Level 12 +2 Int and more Multi-attacks. At 13th you're going to be able to throw Haste yourself so you'll commonly have an action to burn on attacking where you can't multi-attack. This is where Cantrips are the strongest but again its only by 1 hit point per round vs Higer AC (23ish) targets. So, if you've picked up a +1 hand crossbow by 12th level, and it seems likely that you would have, there is no difference between Cantrip and Weapon damage in the situation that favors Cantrips the most. Weapon damage pulls ahead as AC drops or anytime you can Mult-attack. Level 14 +2 Int, more Cantrip accuracy so in some situations you're a tiny bit better off with Cantrips. Again not much more than a point or two. Level 17 4d8 so Cantrip average damage per hit is now 14. So as long as you've never found a magic Hand Crossbow Cantrips are a better shot because of Accuracy when you can't multi attack. Of course if you're 17th level and your fighter doesn't have a magic weapon, I have to ask, what did you do to piss off your DM? So there you go, Cantrips vs. Attacks. Cantrips are a tiny bit better at a limited range of levels, but only if you can't multi attack, and haven't found a magic weapon. And that is maxing out your int. So by dumping Int you give up 1 or 2 points of average damage per rounds at high levels, vs high ACs, if you haven't found a magic weapon. This is why you can dump Int as a EK. You're spending 9 attribuit points at char gen and giving up two feats (or other stat boosts) to pick up a situational damage boost, that goes away in most games as you'll have a magic weapon that pulls weapon damage even with Cantrips. In general this concept works for melee EKs too, there will be a few levels where Cantrip damage is fractionally better but Multi-attack wins. Polearm Master and Two-weapon Fighting Eks are pretty much the same as Crossbow Experts in that you have the bonus action attacks. Tanky-melee-Gishy builds without the bonus action attack will see more mileage from War Magic, but that isn't the focus of this guide. [B]Sub-guide S.A.D.gasm - Notes for Champion or [COLOR=skyblue] Battlemaster [/COLOR] Ranged builds.[/B] SAD - Single Attribute Dependancy is a beutiful thing. Ranged and Finesse fighter builds need Dex and nothing else. I focused on Eldritch Knights since they have the most mechanical choices, and most folks look at the EK and think "oh, I should max out Int too" and its really a concept choice to max Int, not a mechanical choice. Here are my quick notes on Champions and Battle Masters. Champions at 10th take [COLOR=skyblue][B]Defense[/B][/COLOR], all the other non-spellcasting advice up above applies. Battle Masters are IMO better mechanically than Eldritch Knights. Take out all the spell-casting from above and toss in [B]Martial Adept[/B] at mid or late levels. Crossbow builds [COLOR=gold][B]Trip[/B][/COLOR] and [COLOR=blue][B]Goading attack[/B][/COLOR]. Archers [COLOR=skyblue][B]Evasive Footwork[/B][/COLOR], [COLOR=skyblue][B]Goading attack[/B][/COLOR] and [COLOR=blue][B]Push [/B]or[B] Trip[/B][/COLOR]. Trip is so seriously good for handcrossbow builds. Your DM will hate you the first time you walk up to the BEG, fire off trip, give yourself advantage and proceded to Action Point - Multi-attack Nova and solo the BEG in a single round. [B]Warcaster[/B] Lots of comments on Warcaster, see below. IMO you'd take it for the OA it grants. Somantic components are a minor issue for an EK, in the absolute worse case scenario you're occasionally using your bonus action and the otherwise useless Weapon Bond ability to pick up the weapon you dropped to cast your spell. [B]Crossbow Expert[/B] My reading of Crossbow Expert is that you get the bonus action attack with one hand crossbow. Others disagree. Check with your DM before equiping a shield. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Bow Bond: An Eldritch Knight’s Guide to Archery
Top