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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9320007" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>Before I answer these, I'll preface this with how I've always seen the Sorcerer. </p><p></p><p>Before there were Wizards, there were Sorcerers (and Warlocks, but that's a different thread). You got your magic through a connection with magic itself. Only by painstakingly studying what you were doing and how, could the precepts of Wizardry be developed.</p><p></p><p>1- you don't use standard spell components. In fact, at a certain point, you might either dispense with them, or use anything you like as a component. While Wizards flail about with bat guano and sulphur, a given Sorcerer might create magical fire with the discarded scale of a red dragon, some dry kindling rubbed between the fingers, or with a focus such as a tinderbox or a lit torch. While what spells you can use at a given moment is limited, you can freely switch out your entire spell list from day to day- however, all of your magic is bound to a theme, based on it's source. A Fire Sorcerer draws on magic of heat, flame, light, creativity, hearth and home. A Water Sorcerer draws on magic of the oceans, rivers, seas, the waves, darkness and cold from the depths, life itself.</p><p></p><p>2- spell points might be more thematic, but there's nothing wrong with spell slots.</p><p></p><p>3- there shouldn't be a third level subclass. What kind of sorcerer you are should be set at level 1. This only has to determine what kind of magic you use, you don't need special abilities til later, which should lean into the nature of your magic. Water Sorcerers can swim and breathe underwater, Fire Sorcerers can stick their hand in a forge and not be burned. But these are secondary to the spells, which are your primary class ability.</p><p></p><p>4- there shouldn't be a reason to spit the class once it's identity has been affirmed.</p><p></p><p>5- only in a loose way. Your connection to magic marks you, yes, but "turning into a dragon" shouldn't be a full caster. You could, however, make a conceptual related class that does that (similar to Druid's relationship to the Ranger, or Cleric's relationship to the Paladin).</p><p></p><p>6- as cool as it would be to have a Con class, there are some serious concerns. One, having your prime ability be one that is important to all characters means you don't have to worry about conserving points for Con. You could just go Con/Dex and enjoy great defense, hit points, and so on. Even if you reduced their Hit Die, ultimately, they'd still end up as tough or tougher than the Cleric- 20d4+100 vs. say, 10d8+40 or even 60?</p><p></p><p>Charisma is fine, or even Wisdom as their primary ability. Having subclass abilities that key off Con would be fine, if you want Con to be secondary for the class. Certainly, Con save proficiency is a really neat thing that only Sorcerers get, making them lords of concentration, and that's something I feel they can have.</p><p></p><p>7- while the individual sorcerer manifests specific kinds of spells, their overall spell list shouldn't be limited. In fact, it should be expanded! Wizards learned from Sorcerers, after all. In fact, there should be some spells that are normally divine in there, if it aligns with their source of power. If a Fire Sorcerer wants to use Flame Strike, why not (I don't know why they would, but that's a personal choice). We're ok with subclasses giving unusual spells to other classes, and equally ok with Druids having a mix of divine and arcane magic, so why limit the Sorcerer?</p><p></p><p>8- the short answer is no. The long answer is, no, but yes. Because if you want this idea to become the new standard, it has to be seen as "acceptable". A lot of people look at third party as "busted power creep". And sometimes that's true, but other times, it's simply misunderstood. Like Psionics. So it would be better to have acknowledgment by the Powers That Be than not.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9320007, member: 6877472"] Before I answer these, I'll preface this with how I've always seen the Sorcerer. Before there were Wizards, there were Sorcerers (and Warlocks, but that's a different thread). You got your magic through a connection with magic itself. Only by painstakingly studying what you were doing and how, could the precepts of Wizardry be developed. 1- you don't use standard spell components. In fact, at a certain point, you might either dispense with them, or use anything you like as a component. While Wizards flail about with bat guano and sulphur, a given Sorcerer might create magical fire with the discarded scale of a red dragon, some dry kindling rubbed between the fingers, or with a focus such as a tinderbox or a lit torch. While what spells you can use at a given moment is limited, you can freely switch out your entire spell list from day to day- however, all of your magic is bound to a theme, based on it's source. A Fire Sorcerer draws on magic of heat, flame, light, creativity, hearth and home. A Water Sorcerer draws on magic of the oceans, rivers, seas, the waves, darkness and cold from the depths, life itself. 2- spell points might be more thematic, but there's nothing wrong with spell slots. 3- there shouldn't be a third level subclass. What kind of sorcerer you are should be set at level 1. This only has to determine what kind of magic you use, you don't need special abilities til later, which should lean into the nature of your magic. Water Sorcerers can swim and breathe underwater, Fire Sorcerers can stick their hand in a forge and not be burned. But these are secondary to the spells, which are your primary class ability. 4- there shouldn't be a reason to spit the class once it's identity has been affirmed. 5- only in a loose way. Your connection to magic marks you, yes, but "turning into a dragon" shouldn't be a full caster. You could, however, make a conceptual related class that does that (similar to Druid's relationship to the Ranger, or Cleric's relationship to the Paladin). 6- as cool as it would be to have a Con class, there are some serious concerns. One, having your prime ability be one that is important to all characters means you don't have to worry about conserving points for Con. You could just go Con/Dex and enjoy great defense, hit points, and so on. Even if you reduced their Hit Die, ultimately, they'd still end up as tough or tougher than the Cleric- 20d4+100 vs. say, 10d8+40 or even 60? Charisma is fine, or even Wisdom as their primary ability. Having subclass abilities that key off Con would be fine, if you want Con to be secondary for the class. Certainly, Con save proficiency is a really neat thing that only Sorcerers get, making them lords of concentration, and that's something I feel they can have. 7- while the individual sorcerer manifests specific kinds of spells, their overall spell list shouldn't be limited. In fact, it should be expanded! Wizards learned from Sorcerers, after all. In fact, there should be some spells that are normally divine in there, if it aligns with their source of power. If a Fire Sorcerer wants to use Flame Strike, why not (I don't know why they would, but that's a personal choice). We're ok with subclasses giving unusual spells to other classes, and equally ok with Druids having a mix of divine and arcane magic, so why limit the Sorcerer? 8- the short answer is no. The long answer is, no, but yes. Because if you want this idea to become the new standard, it has to be seen as "acceptable". A lot of people look at third party as "busted power creep". And sometimes that's true, but other times, it's simply misunderstood. Like Psionics. So it would be better to have acknowledgment by the Powers That Be than not. [/QUOTE]
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