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Building a better Fighter
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<blockquote data-quote="JeffB" data-source="post: 7182591" data-attributes="member: 518"><p>True, but TSR era fighters also had a much better attack bonus progression over time...which accounts for all weapons. In 5e, every class of x level has a proficiency bonus with their proficient weapons that is the same. So, not only did the GH fighter get bonuses no-one else did, they also progressed much faster as combatants on the "to hit charts" and in XP which also widened the gap.</p><p> In 5e the gap is not so dramatic. A war cleric is not much worse in melee than a champion....and this leads to the next part.....</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p>I really dig Matt's vids. He started in 1986 according to his vids, I started in late 77 or very early 78. So he is a youngin' <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> That said, he is a pro, and I've always been a very casual gamer compared to most I know. I am very much a narrative/tell a story guy and not a rules minutiae guy.</p><p></p><p>The big difference back then is the Fighter was THE fighter and there was nothing comparable. A cleric was very second rate- hit points and ac helped, but he couldn't dish out relative to what he could take due to attack bonus progression,limited weapons, and no ability score help. Cleric spells were limited for the battlefield, and even more limited when it came to offense on the battlefield. Magic Users of course as they got up in levels had some more potent spells, but they are far more formidable in modern versions with at wills and more slots, modified vancian casting, easier access to new spells, and more varied offensive spells. And they are FAR less squishy than their original game counterparts.</p><p></p><p>Gameplay styles were obviously very different. More save or dies, usually more foes encountered (and wandering monsters), "swingy" initiative, and a host of other things. The fighter was not resource driven, and nobody else in the party could hang in there and slug it out, even if just to allow the others to escape. The GH fighter may not be the pinnacle, but he certainly was the Conan or Elric, or John Carter piling up foes. Nowadays, not so much. The GH additions certainly made for a much better class than the M&M fighter (GH made for a far far better game on the whole, barring the addition of the Thief class, IMO)</p><p></p><p>I remember not liking the AD&D Fighter at all, and I played a Paladin once we saw the dice roll options in the DMG (easier to qualify).</p><p></p><p>Many classes nowadays in comparison to the fighter can take a beating (slightly less so) and dish one out (maybe moreso-especially 4e Strikers). Things are more "balanced", designers feel every pc needs to contribute roughly equal in combat (and I agree and understand why) and the fighter has become "the newbie class" or the "easy class". I think that is fine, but the fighter can be simple, not resource driven, and still exciting.. I think they should still be the baddest mofo on the battlefield and stand out in their own way. That has been missing for a long time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JeffB, post: 7182591, member: 518"] True, but TSR era fighters also had a much better attack bonus progression over time...which accounts for all weapons. In 5e, every class of x level has a proficiency bonus with their proficient weapons that is the same. So, not only did the GH fighter get bonuses no-one else did, they also progressed much faster as combatants on the "to hit charts" and in XP which also widened the gap. In 5e the gap is not so dramatic. A war cleric is not much worse in melee than a champion....and this leads to the next part..... I really dig Matt's vids. He started in 1986 according to his vids, I started in late 77 or very early 78. So he is a youngin' ;) That said, he is a pro, and I've always been a very casual gamer compared to most I know. I am very much a narrative/tell a story guy and not a rules minutiae guy. The big difference back then is the Fighter was THE fighter and there was nothing comparable. A cleric was very second rate- hit points and ac helped, but he couldn't dish out relative to what he could take due to attack bonus progression,limited weapons, and no ability score help. Cleric spells were limited for the battlefield, and even more limited when it came to offense on the battlefield. Magic Users of course as they got up in levels had some more potent spells, but they are far more formidable in modern versions with at wills and more slots, modified vancian casting, easier access to new spells, and more varied offensive spells. And they are FAR less squishy than their original game counterparts. Gameplay styles were obviously very different. More save or dies, usually more foes encountered (and wandering monsters), "swingy" initiative, and a host of other things. The fighter was not resource driven, and nobody else in the party could hang in there and slug it out, even if just to allow the others to escape. The GH fighter may not be the pinnacle, but he certainly was the Conan or Elric, or John Carter piling up foes. Nowadays, not so much. The GH additions certainly made for a much better class than the M&M fighter (GH made for a far far better game on the whole, barring the addition of the Thief class, IMO) I remember not liking the AD&D Fighter at all, and I played a Paladin once we saw the dice roll options in the DMG (easier to qualify). Many classes nowadays in comparison to the fighter can take a beating (slightly less so) and dish one out (maybe moreso-especially 4e Strikers). Things are more "balanced", designers feel every pc needs to contribute roughly equal in combat (and I agree and understand why) and the fighter has become "the newbie class" or the "easy class". I think that is fine, but the fighter can be simple, not resource driven, and still exciting.. I think they should still be the baddest mofo on the battlefield and stand out in their own way. That has been missing for a long time. [/QUOTE]
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