Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Building a better Rogue
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7192676" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>The problem, again, is that there's no reason to use them - stay at range and your life is easier in so many ways. No need to "skirmish". You no longer run out of movement. Finding places to hide is much easier. The problem is that there are no clues in the PHB these insights ever reached the design team. It all reads as if everyone just assumes D&D fantasy is about a load of heroes dishing it out in melee, with the occasional "skirmishing" rogue or wizard.</p><p></p><p>This was true in previous editions. They just forgot to check if it was still true in 5E, even while they removed or lessened eleven (11) obstacles to ranged fire.</p><p></p><p>It's hard to escape the conclusion one hand didn't know what the other was doing. The supremacy of melee is so ingrained in the bones of classic fantasy that it was simply taken for granted. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm afraid badly nerfing the Rogue doesn't particularly help the melee Rogue. </p><p></p><p>Sure, it does answer the "why enter dangerous melee when I can stay at safe range?" question. But it doesn't actually <strong>help</strong> the melee Rogue.</p><p></p><p>If the melee Rogue was fine and the ranged Rogue was considered OP, then maybe. But that's not the case among people that do concern themselves with numbers. In my take, the ranged Rogue is about the only way to make the class work, like at all. It's far too squishy otherwise, and you can't afford to spend your Cunning Action on Dash when you'd rather use it to Hide.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p>If the Rogue had the capability to</p><p>1) start the round at a distance, hidden</p><p>2) run up to the monster still hidden and claim sneak attack</p><p>3) run back without eating an OA, and hide</p><p>where "distance" preferably is greater than most monster's move</p><p><em>then</em> the melee rogue could be said to be working as written</p><p>---</p><p></p><p>But as you easily notice: all of that is much easier to do if you don't actually need to move up close to the monster! Not only don't you need to Cunning-Dash, you don't need to both Cunning Disengage and Cunning Hide either. In fact, you only need Cunning-Hide - and all you need to do is shuck yer daggers for a bow!</p><p></p><p><strong>The Rogue is fundamentally misdesigned if melee-range equality was ever a goal.</strong></p><p></p><p>It all leads back to the basic observation: any hero expecting to spend significant time in melee needs HP and AC. The Rogue has neither. </p><p></p><p>But suggesting to add those things to the rogue defeats the purpose, since that only turns it into a variant Warrior.</p><p></p><p>As an alternative, that just might work, is to embrace the squishiness, and to increase the damage output to match it. </p><p></p><p>The Rogue's current damage capacity is fairly well calibrated for a fairly well-protected ranged Rogue. For a melee Rogue, that simply can't get hiding and attacking out of hiding to work, it is woefully inadequate. Me crudely suggesting "let's double the SA dice" is an indicator of the magnitude of the damage deficit.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7192676, member: 12731"] The problem, again, is that there's no reason to use them - stay at range and your life is easier in so many ways. No need to "skirmish". You no longer run out of movement. Finding places to hide is much easier. The problem is that there are no clues in the PHB these insights ever reached the design team. It all reads as if everyone just assumes D&D fantasy is about a load of heroes dishing it out in melee, with the occasional "skirmishing" rogue or wizard. This was true in previous editions. They just forgot to check if it was still true in 5E, even while they removed or lessened eleven (11) obstacles to ranged fire. It's hard to escape the conclusion one hand didn't know what the other was doing. The supremacy of melee is so ingrained in the bones of classic fantasy that it was simply taken for granted. I'm afraid badly nerfing the Rogue doesn't particularly help the melee Rogue. Sure, it does answer the "why enter dangerous melee when I can stay at safe range?" question. But it doesn't actually [B]help[/B] the melee Rogue. If the melee Rogue was fine and the ranged Rogue was considered OP, then maybe. But that's not the case among people that do concern themselves with numbers. In my take, the ranged Rogue is about the only way to make the class work, like at all. It's far too squishy otherwise, and you can't afford to spend your Cunning Action on Dash when you'd rather use it to Hide. --- If the Rogue had the capability to 1) start the round at a distance, hidden 2) run up to the monster still hidden and claim sneak attack 3) run back without eating an OA, and hide where "distance" preferably is greater than most monster's move [I]then[/I] the melee rogue could be said to be working as written --- But as you easily notice: all of that is much easier to do if you don't actually need to move up close to the monster! Not only don't you need to Cunning-Dash, you don't need to both Cunning Disengage and Cunning Hide either. In fact, you only need Cunning-Hide - and all you need to do is shuck yer daggers for a bow! [B]The Rogue is fundamentally misdesigned if melee-range equality was ever a goal.[/B] It all leads back to the basic observation: any hero expecting to spend significant time in melee needs HP and AC. The Rogue has neither. But suggesting to add those things to the rogue defeats the purpose, since that only turns it into a variant Warrior. As an alternative, that just might work, is to embrace the squishiness, and to increase the damage output to match it. The Rogue's current damage capacity is fairly well calibrated for a fairly well-protected ranged Rogue. For a melee Rogue, that simply can't get hiding and attacking out of hiding to work, it is woefully inadequate. Me crudely suggesting "let's double the SA dice" is an indicator of the magnitude of the damage deficit. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Building a better Rogue
Top