Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Can DnD ever approximate the heroic literature?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 113284" data-attributes="member: 158"><p>In regards to the early comment that you never saw villains in the heroic tales skulk and be villainous: You also never saw them making resurrection preparations, pack everything in their backpacks except a 20-foot pole, and skulk every 10 feet like a bunch of SEALs on a mission either - like Wuxia said. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Yet players bring it into the game, too.</p><p></p><p>I would like to add three more dimensions to this so-called "problem.:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The characters are only as good as the players who play them. The players are all modern 20th century males and females who will instinctively think in 20th century ideas and terms. The modern idea of warfare and facing opponents is to Not get Hit, to hit the enemy in vulnerable areas, to use the most force possible in the shortest time, etc. - SEAL-like tactics. You don't want to fight valiantly, you want to WIN. Admittedly, because of hit points and lack of wound penalties, hitting someone until they stop moving IS the way to take someone out of combat, so that is the natural tactic.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> Agreed, there are some spells and abilities that make single creatures very vulnerable - Harm, any spell that reduces or eliminates Spell Resistance, and Power Word Kill. However, there are not so many that the system is unfixable. For instance, my opinion is that Harm should have one of two things in it: Either give the foe a save, or reduce it back to its 2nd edition rule, which was it had to be an attack against the full Armor Class of the foe.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Trying to compare any RPG to Heroic literature is folly. It would be a fairer comparison if a novel were collectively written by 5 or more people, with each person contributing one paragraph at a time, and not necessarily in a systematic order. THEN you would have a novel that matched closer to PRG play. In any heroic literature, the entire tale, or almost all of it, would be told by ONE author, from whom all actions and plot elements flow. As a lesser example, Salvatore knows that Drizzt will never die in a story and remain dead; he still has more stories to tell, and more money to make, off of the story of the Drow Elf outcast. In a D&D campaign, someone MIGHT die and never come back; perhaps that player has decided he wants to play another character. The WHOLE PARTY might die through stupidity, and other heroes come in to take up the candle and see the quest through. You rarely see this in heroic literature of the past.<br /> [/list=a] <br /> <br /> In Summary, while heroic stories and exciting tales can be had, it is folly to make a game that is so restricted, that the PC's are FORCED by the DM into being heroic: If the players want to be conniving, Charlatanous S.O.B.'s, they shouldn't be forced into it, but rather all actions should have consequences. Any game that doesn't allow me to ambush or attack my enemies with my strongest offense, I would not play - because I am NOT going to stand toe to toe with powerful enemies, if that is the ONLY option to fight them in the game system. Heroes with Martyr Complexes may enjoy this, but I don't enjoy rolling up hundreds of characters to advance to second level. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> Just a dozen or so.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Henry, post: 113284, member: 158"] In regards to the early comment that you never saw villains in the heroic tales skulk and be villainous: You also never saw them making resurrection preparations, pack everything in their backpacks except a 20-foot pole, and skulk every 10 feet like a bunch of SEALs on a mission either - like Wuxia said. :) Yet players bring it into the game, too. I would like to add three more dimensions to this so-called "problem.: [list=a] [*]The characters are only as good as the players who play them. The players are all modern 20th century males and females who will instinctively think in 20th century ideas and terms. The modern idea of warfare and facing opponents is to Not get Hit, to hit the enemy in vulnerable areas, to use the most force possible in the shortest time, etc. - SEAL-like tactics. You don't want to fight valiantly, you want to WIN. Admittedly, because of hit points and lack of wound penalties, hitting someone until they stop moving IS the way to take someone out of combat, so that is the natural tactic. [*] Agreed, there are some spells and abilities that make single creatures very vulnerable - Harm, any spell that reduces or eliminates Spell Resistance, and Power Word Kill. However, there are not so many that the system is unfixable. For instance, my opinion is that Harm should have one of two things in it: Either give the foe a save, or reduce it back to its 2nd edition rule, which was it had to be an attack against the full Armor Class of the foe. [*]Trying to compare any RPG to Heroic literature is folly. It would be a fairer comparison if a novel were collectively written by 5 or more people, with each person contributing one paragraph at a time, and not necessarily in a systematic order. THEN you would have a novel that matched closer to PRG play. In any heroic literature, the entire tale, or almost all of it, would be told by ONE author, from whom all actions and plot elements flow. As a lesser example, Salvatore knows that Drizzt will never die in a story and remain dead; he still has more stories to tell, and more money to make, off of the story of the Drow Elf outcast. In a D&D campaign, someone MIGHT die and never come back; perhaps that player has decided he wants to play another character. The WHOLE PARTY might die through stupidity, and other heroes come in to take up the candle and see the quest through. You rarely see this in heroic literature of the past. [/list=a] In Summary, while heroic stories and exciting tales can be had, it is folly to make a game that is so restricted, that the PC's are FORCED by the DM into being heroic: If the players want to be conniving, Charlatanous S.O.B.'s, they shouldn't be forced into it, but rather all actions should have consequences. Any game that doesn't allow me to ambush or attack my enemies with my strongest offense, I would not play - because I am NOT going to stand toe to toe with powerful enemies, if that is the ONLY option to fight them in the game system. Heroes with Martyr Complexes may enjoy this, but I don't enjoy rolling up hundreds of characters to advance to second level. :) Just a dozen or so.[/list] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Can DnD ever approximate the heroic literature?
Top