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Community
General Tabletop Discussion
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Can one of the lead designers of D&D please stand up and clarify "Rain of Blows"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Doctor Proctor" data-source="post: 4660961" data-attributes="member: 78547"><p>There's other considerations here too. Powers shouldn't always be viewed in a vacuum, but compared to other powers and other builds.</p><p></p><p>In order to even <em>qualify</em> for Rain of Blows you have to use what amounts to a weak secondary stat and a weak weapon group...as far as a Fighter is concerned anyway. Wisdom or Constitution as Secondary stats will usually give you better mechanical benefits, unless you're going for Heavy Blades and HBO (Which you're not with this build...unless you throw in dual weapons, but that's a whole other issue with them that has nothing to do with this power).</p><p></p><p>Addtionally, if we're going to assume that there's a Cleric or Warlord buffing the Fighter using RoB, then why don't we compare it to an optimized Fighter using Come and Get It or Warrior's Urging while getting similar buffs. It's absolutely trivial to get 4 or more enemies adjacent with Warrior's Urging, considering that it's a burst 4, and with equivalent buffs it would do more damage due to the higher number of W's being used. Come and Get It would also be able to easily pull 4 or 5 enemies, and would then approximately math Rain of Blows bonuses. Plus, these abilities have an advantage. According to Logan the power works as "Make an attack, if attack 1 hits then you get a secondary attack. Make a second attack, if attack 2 hits then you get a secondary attack." This means that if you miss a primary attack, then you don't get the Secondary attack. With Come and Get It and other burst powers, it doesn't matter what order you attack in and misses will not affect the overall number of attacks that you're attempting to make. In short, Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging will almost always outdamage Rain of Blows provided that you use it in a situation where you're pulling at least 3-4 targets. And don't even get me started on Cruel Reaper...</p><p></p><p>Now, granted, all of that is a comparison to when you're using Rain of Blows in such a way that you're targeting a different enemy with each attack. When it comes to single opponent damage RoB will win out over a lot of stuff. Again though, that's if you're concentrating on a weak secondary and using a weaker weapons group (as far as Fighter power selection is concerned). Perhaps this is just the designer's way of making that path a viable option? Look at Silverstep, for example. It requires a high Dex and the use of a Spear or Polearm to get the most benefit out of it. If you do that though, you have one of the most powerful push powers a Fighter can have. And it's an encounter! If you started with a 16 DEX and pumped it every level, then you would have a 20 DEX at level 14 (Silverstep is technically a level 13, but that's only one level past it) which would mean pushing two targets 5 squares a piece and then shifting 5 yourself. I don't think that there's any later powers that can match that, even dailies. Does anyone complain though? That's probably because A) it's a push, and B) you have to use an inferior weapon and secondary stat choice to maximize it's effectiveness.</p><p></p><p>Basically, it seems that the designers were trying to add in some unique powers to work for the non-HBO DEX fighters and spear wielders. Yes, they're very strong and you don't have to change them out at higher levels, but there also aren't a lot of non-Heavy Blade or Spear powers at the higher levels to change to! They're niche powers for a niche build.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Doctor Proctor, post: 4660961, member: 78547"] There's other considerations here too. Powers shouldn't always be viewed in a vacuum, but compared to other powers and other builds. In order to even [I]qualify[/I] for Rain of Blows you have to use what amounts to a weak secondary stat and a weak weapon group...as far as a Fighter is concerned anyway. Wisdom or Constitution as Secondary stats will usually give you better mechanical benefits, unless you're going for Heavy Blades and HBO (Which you're not with this build...unless you throw in dual weapons, but that's a whole other issue with them that has nothing to do with this power). Addtionally, if we're going to assume that there's a Cleric or Warlord buffing the Fighter using RoB, then why don't we compare it to an optimized Fighter using Come and Get It or Warrior's Urging while getting similar buffs. It's absolutely trivial to get 4 or more enemies adjacent with Warrior's Urging, considering that it's a burst 4, and with equivalent buffs it would do more damage due to the higher number of W's being used. Come and Get It would also be able to easily pull 4 or 5 enemies, and would then approximately math Rain of Blows bonuses. Plus, these abilities have an advantage. According to Logan the power works as "Make an attack, if attack 1 hits then you get a secondary attack. Make a second attack, if attack 2 hits then you get a secondary attack." This means that if you miss a primary attack, then you don't get the Secondary attack. With Come and Get It and other burst powers, it doesn't matter what order you attack in and misses will not affect the overall number of attacks that you're attempting to make. In short, Come and Get It and Warrior's Urging will almost always outdamage Rain of Blows provided that you use it in a situation where you're pulling at least 3-4 targets. And don't even get me started on Cruel Reaper... Now, granted, all of that is a comparison to when you're using Rain of Blows in such a way that you're targeting a different enemy with each attack. When it comes to single opponent damage RoB will win out over a lot of stuff. Again though, that's if you're concentrating on a weak secondary and using a weaker weapons group (as far as Fighter power selection is concerned). Perhaps this is just the designer's way of making that path a viable option? Look at Silverstep, for example. It requires a high Dex and the use of a Spear or Polearm to get the most benefit out of it. If you do that though, you have one of the most powerful push powers a Fighter can have. And it's an encounter! If you started with a 16 DEX and pumped it every level, then you would have a 20 DEX at level 14 (Silverstep is technically a level 13, but that's only one level past it) which would mean pushing two targets 5 squares a piece and then shifting 5 yourself. I don't think that there's any later powers that can match that, even dailies. Does anyone complain though? That's probably because A) it's a push, and B) you have to use an inferior weapon and secondary stat choice to maximize it's effectiveness. Basically, it seems that the designers were trying to add in some unique powers to work for the non-HBO DEX fighters and spear wielders. Yes, they're very strong and you don't have to change them out at higher levels, but there also aren't a lot of non-Heavy Blade or Spear powers at the higher levels to change to! They're niche powers for a niche build. [/QUOTE]
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Community
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Can one of the lead designers of D&D please stand up and clarify "Rain of Blows"?
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