Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 7537632" data-attributes="member: 6704184"><p>OK, an argument that is more than tradition, I can respect and engage with! </p><p></p><p> I mean, rogues stab or shoot dudes with weapons, but they're not fighters. I'm not sure I quite get where you're coming from, unless it's that cantrips should vary in effect more than they do. I don't see how this relates to whether any given class should have cantrips. Even if we agree that the cantrips are too much the same, most characters don't spend most of their time using cantrips when playing a full caster. They cast actual spells. </p><p></p><p>But let's check out thsoe cantrips. </p><p></p><p>Fire Bolt is long range spell attack, and can either burn a critter or set something aflame. </p><p></p><p>Produce Flame creates a harmless flame in your hand that works like a candle that lasts for 10 minutes. You can throw it at someone within short range (30ft) spell attack, ending the spell. </p><p></p><p>Sacred Flame brings searing radiance on someone's head within mid range (60ft), forcing a dex save. Radiant damage isn't available to wizards, and is especially useful against certain creatures. This is the most boring of the three, mechanically, but also very different from the others thematically. </p><p></p><p>Now, lets look at other cantrips these classes get, shall we? </p><p></p><p>Cleric and Druid get Resistence, but Wizards don't. Essentially cantrip level single target bless. </p><p></p><p>Wizards and Druids get Shape Water. I'd argue that only Druids should, but it's not a big deal. Clerics don't get much elemental magic. </p><p></p><p>Only Druid gets Thorn Whip. You could argue that it's similar to Lightning Lure, but Wizards are also less likely to want to pull things up next to them, compared to Druids. </p><p></p><p>Etc. Druids have more overlap with the other two than they have with eachother, but Druids also get wild shape, and some pretty crazy unique leveled spells. </p><p></p><p>War Clerics are solid warriors, also, while Moon Druids are oddball but solid melee combatants. Bladesingers are advanced difficulty gishes. Fun, but harder to play that other gish builds in the game. </p><p></p><p>The classes are very different. I...I don't get why this is a controversial statement, apparently. </p><p></p><p> I agree, though you won't like my conclussion. Why do those classes have those proficiencies? Druids shouldn't be using weapons, and clerics should be priests, not holy warriors. If they're going to use weapons and armor (no druids in armor!) they should be doing so either less well than actual warriors, or keep up via their divine blessings, not via martial might. </p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a couple spells from their enormous list of spells. <shrug></p><p>Invisibility especially shouldn't be remotely unique to wizards. At all. Fireball is iconic, sure, but so what? There are vastly more spells that wizards <em>don't</em> share with either class than spells they do. </p><p></p><p>I didn't act like it was, in any way, shape, or form. I also wasn't hostile. I genuinely don't know what you're talking about. If it helps, no hostility of any kind was intended to be put across in my post, because no hostility of any kind was felt. Rereading the post, I can't even figure out what may have come across as hostile, but if you point it out, I'll happily apologize for the hostility. Intended or not, what's done is done. </p><p></p><p>Also, we both think clerics and druids need some work. Just in opposite directions, apparently.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="doctorbadwolf, post: 7537632, member: 6704184"] OK, an argument that is more than tradition, I can respect and engage with! I mean, rogues stab or shoot dudes with weapons, but they're not fighters. I'm not sure I quite get where you're coming from, unless it's that cantrips should vary in effect more than they do. I don't see how this relates to whether any given class should have cantrips. Even if we agree that the cantrips are too much the same, most characters don't spend most of their time using cantrips when playing a full caster. They cast actual spells. But let's check out thsoe cantrips. Fire Bolt is long range spell attack, and can either burn a critter or set something aflame. Produce Flame creates a harmless flame in your hand that works like a candle that lasts for 10 minutes. You can throw it at someone within short range (30ft) spell attack, ending the spell. Sacred Flame brings searing radiance on someone's head within mid range (60ft), forcing a dex save. Radiant damage isn't available to wizards, and is especially useful against certain creatures. This is the most boring of the three, mechanically, but also very different from the others thematically. Now, lets look at other cantrips these classes get, shall we? Cleric and Druid get Resistence, but Wizards don't. Essentially cantrip level single target bless. Wizards and Druids get Shape Water. I'd argue that only Druids should, but it's not a big deal. Clerics don't get much elemental magic. Only Druid gets Thorn Whip. You could argue that it's similar to Lightning Lure, but Wizards are also less likely to want to pull things up next to them, compared to Druids. Etc. Druids have more overlap with the other two than they have with eachother, but Druids also get wild shape, and some pretty crazy unique leveled spells. War Clerics are solid warriors, also, while Moon Druids are oddball but solid melee combatants. Bladesingers are advanced difficulty gishes. Fun, but harder to play that other gish builds in the game. The classes are very different. I...I don't get why this is a controversial statement, apparently. I agree, though you won't like my conclussion. Why do those classes have those proficiencies? Druids shouldn't be using weapons, and clerics should be priests, not holy warriors. If they're going to use weapons and armor (no druids in armor!) they should be doing so either less well than actual warriors, or keep up via their divine blessings, not via martial might. It's a couple spells from their enormous list of spells. <shrug> Invisibility especially shouldn't be remotely unique to wizards. At all. Fireball is iconic, sure, but so what? There are vastly more spells that wizards [I]don't[/I] share with either class than spells they do. I didn't act like it was, in any way, shape, or form. I also wasn't hostile. I genuinely don't know what you're talking about. If it helps, no hostility of any kind was intended to be put across in my post, because no hostility of any kind was felt. Rereading the post, I can't even figure out what may have come across as hostile, but if you point it out, I'll happily apologize for the hostility. Intended or not, what's done is done. Also, we both think clerics and druids need some work. Just in opposite directions, apparently. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
Top