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Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7539186" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>Maybe not. But, they weren't too shabby either. And, outside of fighter types, they were second best in combat, hands down. The thief and the wizard weren't even close. You could stand your cleric beside the fighter and, if the game went from say 1st to 10th level, in AD&D, you weren't that far behind the fighter. Sure, at 7th level he was getting 2 attacks per round, but, you were both getting 1/round for the past six levels. And, since only fighters got weapon specs, the ranger and the paladin weren't overshadowing you much until 7th level.</p><p></p><p>3e clerics attacked almost as well as fighters, sure, they lagged a bit on iterative attacks, but, not much. They were certainly respectable.</p><p></p><p>It wasn't until 4e that clerics suddenly stopped being front line combatants at all. In 4e, they were limited to chain mail, had very limited weapon attacks and most of their powers weren't keyed to a weapon attack.</p><p></p><p>5e clerics are a bit schizophrenic. They've got the best armor, almost the best HP, decent weapon selection but, their cantrips add nothing to weapon attacks, and, in fact, by 5th level anyway, out damage virtually any weapon attack they could do (or at least equal) and by 11th level, leave their weapons in the dust. So you wind up being pulled in two opposite directions. Your powers are telling you to stand back behind the front line and plink away with spells while your class stuff is telling you to get up there and mix it up with the front line.</p><p></p><p>I've really noticed this with my Forge Priest. Currently 8th level, I envisioned him as getting up there and smacking things upside the head with a mace. I mean, fantastic AC, good HP, good attack bonuses - I should be a front line combatant. But, here's the kicker. A mace and, say, a 16 Str (which is very high for a cleric - I think my base Str is actually 14) is only d8+3 damage. All my cantrips deal better damage than that. Sacred flame is 2d8, it not only has a better maximum damage, it actually has better average damage. So, from 5th to 7th level, there was virtually no reason to use a weapon.</p><p></p><p>But wait, I'm 8th (well, just ticked 9th level last session). So, I get a bonus d8 from my Divine Strike feature 1/round. So, my mace is now 2d8+3. Ok, so, it's now slightly better than cantrips. OTOH, I have to actually be in melee to do that, and I have to target AC instead of Dex saves. Slightly more damage while slightly less reliable. It's pretty much a wash.</p><p></p><p>Like I said, the class pushes players in two opposite directions. Really, why bother with a weapon? At best, I'm dealing equal damage, while now being in a position to take damage. Or, I can stand behind the fighter, next to the wizard, and plink away.</p><p></p><p>Do I expect clerics to be massive damage dealers? Nope. Not at all. Clerics are support characters. I've got no problem with the total damage being done. That's fine. The problem is, the class can't make up its mind what it should be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7539186, member: 22779"] Maybe not. But, they weren't too shabby either. And, outside of fighter types, they were second best in combat, hands down. The thief and the wizard weren't even close. You could stand your cleric beside the fighter and, if the game went from say 1st to 10th level, in AD&D, you weren't that far behind the fighter. Sure, at 7th level he was getting 2 attacks per round, but, you were both getting 1/round for the past six levels. And, since only fighters got weapon specs, the ranger and the paladin weren't overshadowing you much until 7th level. 3e clerics attacked almost as well as fighters, sure, they lagged a bit on iterative attacks, but, not much. They were certainly respectable. It wasn't until 4e that clerics suddenly stopped being front line combatants at all. In 4e, they were limited to chain mail, had very limited weapon attacks and most of their powers weren't keyed to a weapon attack. 5e clerics are a bit schizophrenic. They've got the best armor, almost the best HP, decent weapon selection but, their cantrips add nothing to weapon attacks, and, in fact, by 5th level anyway, out damage virtually any weapon attack they could do (or at least equal) and by 11th level, leave their weapons in the dust. So you wind up being pulled in two opposite directions. Your powers are telling you to stand back behind the front line and plink away with spells while your class stuff is telling you to get up there and mix it up with the front line. I've really noticed this with my Forge Priest. Currently 8th level, I envisioned him as getting up there and smacking things upside the head with a mace. I mean, fantastic AC, good HP, good attack bonuses - I should be a front line combatant. But, here's the kicker. A mace and, say, a 16 Str (which is very high for a cleric - I think my base Str is actually 14) is only d8+3 damage. All my cantrips deal better damage than that. Sacred flame is 2d8, it not only has a better maximum damage, it actually has better average damage. So, from 5th to 7th level, there was virtually no reason to use a weapon. But wait, I'm 8th (well, just ticked 9th level last session). So, I get a bonus d8 from my Divine Strike feature 1/round. So, my mace is now 2d8+3. Ok, so, it's now slightly better than cantrips. OTOH, I have to actually be in melee to do that, and I have to target AC instead of Dex saves. Slightly more damage while slightly less reliable. It's pretty much a wash. Like I said, the class pushes players in two opposite directions. Really, why bother with a weapon? At best, I'm dealing equal damage, while now being in a position to take damage. Or, I can stand behind the fighter, next to the wizard, and plink away. Do I expect clerics to be massive damage dealers? Nope. Not at all. Clerics are support characters. I've got no problem with the total damage being done. That's fine. The problem is, the class can't make up its mind what it should be. [/QUOTE]
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Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
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