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Cantrip nerf (house rule brainstorm)
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8238729" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>Lots to answer so I'm going to add some <strong>A B C</strong> type stuff to your post in hopes of keeping it simple & avoiding confusion</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>A</strong> it absolutely was yes. However it would be absurd to suggest that at will damage single target damage & resource consuming spike damage are not things that must be taken into account as <em>part </em>of "general power" as it related to a class.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>B</strong> Don't care at all. That would be like taking a cargo van loaded with tools equipment & supplies, a <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=terex+dump+truck&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjT0sDuxOLvAhWYcTABHejPAx8Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=terex+dump+&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQARgAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAgQHjIGCAAQCBAeMgYIABAIEB4yBggAEAgQHjIGCAAQCBAeOgQIABBDUMYmWNIyYPk7aABwAHgAgAFjiAGsBJIBATaYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=iZ1oYJPqEZjjwbkP6J-P-AE&bih=722&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS859US859" target="_blank">terex</a>, and a sportscar to the track expecting them to all get the same times on a drag race.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>C</strong>The "ratio" is a crunchable number that can be used when looking at the other stuff class brings to the table to decide if the sum total of other stuff justifies the damage. Using the track examples:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The sportscar gets awful gas mileage with great pickup & top speed. AIso it doesn't even have a trunk or back seat so has very little cargo capacity. All of those are things relevant to anyone needing a car & remain relevant to some degree most times they use it.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The cargo van gets similar but not good gas mileage as the sports car, has tons of cargo capacity, & has mediocre pickup & ok top speed . Like the sportscar all of those are things relevant to anyone needing a car & remain relevant to some degree most times they use it.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You've probably never seen or even <em>heard </em>of a terex, I once saw one loaded with a beached whale (like the whole whale & not one of those little whales). It gets something like 5 gallons per mile for gas mileage (not a typo, as in 0.2mpg). Finally it almost certainly a pickup & top speed less than an elderly <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall_walking" target="_blank">mall walker</a>. None of those are relevant useful or desired by most drivers</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Getting back to the ratio.... </strong>Damage is one of those things like pickup top speed & mileage that is going to be of significant value in the vast majority of sessions & more is almost always going to be better. How much one is likely to be able to carry <em>might</em> come up, but not often & there is going to quickly be a point of diminishing returns where the value of raising carrying capacity is close to zero if not zero. Everything the terex can do is useful to someone and it all comes with significant downsides, but if applied to character classes casters have a lot of these kinds of things. You could also look at mmo's for another example, nobody really cares if the healer or crowd controller does much if any damage because the value of keeping everyone standing & doing crowd control is huge while a character that focuses more on buffing & debuffing needs to bring a little more to the table cause it's not so simple. The damage combined with the meaningful relevant bits of a class toolbox needs to combine into some meaningful level of worth but if at will+spike damage are bad to generally unimpressive the value of everything else<em>(lets call it their toolbox)</em> needs to reliably be huge in the vast majority of sessions.<br /> <br /> A barbarian can include things like their carrying capacity in their toolbox & a fighter can include the ability to choose from multiple weapons that are largely mechanically identical in their toolbox but none of those things are all that useful in the vast majority of sessions so should have very little if any weight in holding their class design back in areas the class cares about. Relentless rage comes for a barbarian at level 11 so shouldn't have much impact on levels 1-10 even if it is a great ability that has significant weight from level 11 on. Also at level 11 quite a few casters can cast true seeing, it's useful... occasionally... if you stop to prepare it but unlike relentless rage that spell is going to very rarely provide any sort of meaningful contribution at the table so it should have very little if any weight on the rest of the class. There is no easy answer and some reasonable amount of subjectivity is always going to be needed.<br /> <br /> </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>D:</strong> This is where the subjectivity I talked about in C is important but I've provided a few in this very thread. Back on page1(<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/cantrip-nerf-house-rule-brainstorm.679235/post-8237071" target="_blank">here</a>) I talked about how cantrip damage tacks up against weapon damage & in that post included a link to detailed mathy stuff including the spreadsheet. Back on page5(<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/cantrip-nerf-house-rule-brainstorm.679235/post-8238063" target="_blank">here</a>) I provided 4 different datapoints from 3 different wotc sources (dmg xge & alpg) showing strong evidence for why the faulty whiteroom of no magic weapons being available should have little if any merit worth even considering due to how wotc strongly ties to push making magic weapons "generously" available and even provides a rather low bar to purchasing them<em>(one set of platemail costs about the same as enough magic weapons for most of the average group so not a high bar at all)</em>. That page 5 post also includes an example of the sort of asymmetrical monster design in the form of a monster's resist/immune lines alongside an uncommon ~100-500gp +1 wand & +1 weapon where every single energy resist listed will always remain relevant while the resistant to nonmagical B/P/S is completely ignored. I could add to that magic resistance & magic resistance alongside all of the weights already stacked up in this point alone. The damage disparity certainly doesn't justify al of these weights and the nondamage buff/debuff/control/etc spells tend to be written in ways that feel held back as if they need to compensate for LFQW even though it doesn't exist in 5e</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>E:</strong> The nonoptimal magic weapon choice is less of a factor than people make it out to be. If you looked at the post I mentioned in D & the data in it you would have seen than a shield and<em><u><strong> dagger</strong></u></em> fighter stacks up well against a d12 cantrip & only even falls behind if their +prime stat is falling behind the generally expected. Mind you that I'm not talking about an artifact or even a +1 dagger, it was literally the useless dagger included in some starting packages in the hands of a fighter with no extra coming from fighting styles feats or what have you beyond extra attack. The damage disparity is extreme well past what could be called an "almost unbelievable degree." Those crazy illusionist bracers from GGTR everyone thought crazy OP bring firebolt about even with a longsword & shield in the hands of that same fighter as another example... "bob needs a glaive or longsword instead of his preferred greataxe" is still extremely far ahead of cantrips</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>F: </strong>as serious as it seems, D should not be ignored & it largely dismisses this whole CoS thing. It goes one step further though because after you leave ravenloft & get magic weapons or even vsit castle ravenloft & get magic weapons that artificer & every other caster is still largely pegged against conditions that are unlikely to<em> ever</em> return.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>G:</strong> LFQW is absolutely bad yes QFLW is worse. When so many aspects of casters beyond damage is individually trying to make sure it alone is the shield defending against rampant unchecked LFQW through various means including a wide array of spells that deliberately & obviously miss the mark to jut be almost good or worse. Introducing <em>some </em>level of LFQW with a small dial shift under those conditions is more fixing a problem of bad weighting against a whiteroom D clearly shows should never have been used than introducing a problem</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>H:</strong> Casters are fine as long as both martials & casters are in that same whiteroom with nonmagical weapons, but D details how flimsy & not at all recommended that the whiteroom itself is & there is no easy solution for towing casters out of that whiteroom once martials get n uncommon magic weapon with a 100-500gp msrp when wotc suggests the gm "be generous with magic weapons"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>I </strong>In a lot of cases spells are held back with petty red tape & strings, overleveled for the effect, needlessly saddled with short duration limited targets with no way of shifting targets <em>and</em> concentration then topped off by granting a free save to end every round to targets that are only affected because they failed the initial save to ignore. Unfortunately it is as much of a mess to fix because it would take both rewriting a huge percentage of the spells and doing testing/sanity checking to avoid true LFQW/punpun type "oops". The problem is entirely wotc's deliberate creation & there is no easy solution one could charitably say was <em>just</em> "significant houserules"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>J </strong>I think this is directed at another poster & have no idea what your asking about if not.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8238729, member: 93670"] Lots to answer so I'm going to add some [B]A B C[/B] type stuff to your post in hopes of keeping it simple & avoiding confusion [LIST] [*][B]A[/B] it absolutely was yes. However it would be absurd to suggest that at will damage single target damage & resource consuming spike damage are not things that must be taken into account as [I]part [/I]of "general power" as it related to a class. [*][B]B[/B] Don't care at all. That would be like taking a cargo van loaded with tools equipment & supplies, a [URL='https://www.google.com/search?q=terex+dump+truck&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjT0sDuxOLvAhWYcTABHejPAx8Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=terex+dump+&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQARgAMgIIADICCAAyBggAEAUQHjIGCAAQBRAeMgYIABAFEB4yBggAEAgQHjIGCAAQCBAeMgYIABAIEB4yBggAEAgQHjIGCAAQCBAeOgQIABBDUMYmWNIyYPk7aABwAHgAgAFjiAGsBJIBATaYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=iZ1oYJPqEZjjwbkP6J-P-AE&bih=722&biw=1536&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS859US859']terex[/URL], and a sportscar to the track expecting them to all get the same times on a drag race. [*][B]C[/B]The "ratio" is a crunchable number that can be used when looking at the other stuff class brings to the table to decide if the sum total of other stuff justifies the damage. Using the track examples: [LIST] [*]The sportscar gets awful gas mileage with great pickup & top speed. AIso it doesn't even have a trunk or back seat so has very little cargo capacity. All of those are things relevant to anyone needing a car & remain relevant to some degree most times they use it. [*]The cargo van gets similar but not good gas mileage as the sports car, has tons of cargo capacity, & has mediocre pickup & ok top speed . Like the sportscar all of those are things relevant to anyone needing a car & remain relevant to some degree most times they use it. [*]You've probably never seen or even [I]heard [/I]of a terex, I once saw one loaded with a beached whale (like the whole whale & not one of those little whales). It gets something like 5 gallons per mile for gas mileage (not a typo, as in 0.2mpg). Finally it almost certainly a pickup & top speed less than an elderly [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mall_walking']mall walker[/URL]. None of those are relevant useful or desired by most drivers [/LIST] [*][B]Getting back to the ratio.... [/B]Damage is one of those things like pickup top speed & mileage that is going to be of significant value in the vast majority of sessions & more is almost always going to be better. How much one is likely to be able to carry [I]might[/I] come up, but not often & there is going to quickly be a point of diminishing returns where the value of raising carrying capacity is close to zero if not zero. Everything the terex can do is useful to someone and it all comes with significant downsides, but if applied to character classes casters have a lot of these kinds of things. You could also look at mmo's for another example, nobody really cares if the healer or crowd controller does much if any damage because the value of keeping everyone standing & doing crowd control is huge while a character that focuses more on buffing & debuffing needs to bring a little more to the table cause it's not so simple. The damage combined with the meaningful relevant bits of a class toolbox needs to combine into some meaningful level of worth but if at will+spike damage are bad to generally unimpressive the value of everything else[I](lets call it their toolbox)[/I] needs to reliably be huge in the vast majority of sessions. A barbarian can include things like their carrying capacity in their toolbox & a fighter can include the ability to choose from multiple weapons that are largely mechanically identical in their toolbox but none of those things are all that useful in the vast majority of sessions so should have very little if any weight in holding their class design back in areas the class cares about. Relentless rage comes for a barbarian at level 11 so shouldn't have much impact on levels 1-10 even if it is a great ability that has significant weight from level 11 on. Also at level 11 quite a few casters can cast true seeing, it's useful... occasionally... if you stop to prepare it but unlike relentless rage that spell is going to very rarely provide any sort of meaningful contribution at the table so it should have very little if any weight on the rest of the class. There is no easy answer and some reasonable amount of subjectivity is always going to be needed. [*][B]D:[/B] This is where the subjectivity I talked about in C is important but I've provided a few in this very thread. Back on page1([URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/cantrip-nerf-house-rule-brainstorm.679235/post-8237071']here[/URL]) I talked about how cantrip damage tacks up against weapon damage & in that post included a link to detailed mathy stuff including the spreadsheet. Back on page5([URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/cantrip-nerf-house-rule-brainstorm.679235/post-8238063']here[/URL]) I provided 4 different datapoints from 3 different wotc sources (dmg xge & alpg) showing strong evidence for why the faulty whiteroom of no magic weapons being available should have little if any merit worth even considering due to how wotc strongly ties to push making magic weapons "generously" available and even provides a rather low bar to purchasing them[I](one set of platemail costs about the same as enough magic weapons for most of the average group so not a high bar at all)[/I]. That page 5 post also includes an example of the sort of asymmetrical monster design in the form of a monster's resist/immune lines alongside an uncommon ~100-500gp +1 wand & +1 weapon where every single energy resist listed will always remain relevant while the resistant to nonmagical B/P/S is completely ignored. I could add to that magic resistance & magic resistance alongside all of the weights already stacked up in this point alone. The damage disparity certainly doesn't justify al of these weights and the nondamage buff/debuff/control/etc spells tend to be written in ways that feel held back as if they need to compensate for LFQW even though it doesn't exist in 5e [*][B]E:[/B] The nonoptimal magic weapon choice is less of a factor than people make it out to be. If you looked at the post I mentioned in D & the data in it you would have seen than a shield and[I][U][B] dagger[/B][/U][/I] fighter stacks up well against a d12 cantrip & only even falls behind if their +prime stat is falling behind the generally expected. Mind you that I'm not talking about an artifact or even a +1 dagger, it was literally the useless dagger included in some starting packages in the hands of a fighter with no extra coming from fighting styles feats or what have you beyond extra attack. The damage disparity is extreme well past what could be called an "almost unbelievable degree." Those crazy illusionist bracers from GGTR everyone thought crazy OP bring firebolt about even with a longsword & shield in the hands of that same fighter as another example... "bob needs a glaive or longsword instead of his preferred greataxe" is still extremely far ahead of cantrips [*][B]F: [/B]as serious as it seems, D should not be ignored & it largely dismisses this whole CoS thing. It goes one step further though because after you leave ravenloft & get magic weapons or even vsit castle ravenloft & get magic weapons that artificer & every other caster is still largely pegged against conditions that are unlikely to[I] ever[/I] return. [*][B]G:[/B] LFQW is absolutely bad yes QFLW is worse. When so many aspects of casters beyond damage is individually trying to make sure it alone is the shield defending against rampant unchecked LFQW through various means including a wide array of spells that deliberately & obviously miss the mark to jut be almost good or worse. Introducing [I]some [/I]level of LFQW with a small dial shift under those conditions is more fixing a problem of bad weighting against a whiteroom D clearly shows should never have been used than introducing a problem [*][B]H:[/B] Casters are fine as long as both martials & casters are in that same whiteroom with nonmagical weapons, but D details how flimsy & not at all recommended that the whiteroom itself is & there is no easy solution for towing casters out of that whiteroom once martials get n uncommon magic weapon with a 100-500gp msrp when wotc suggests the gm "be generous with magic weapons" [*][B]I [/B]In a lot of cases spells are held back with petty red tape & strings, overleveled for the effect, needlessly saddled with short duration limited targets with no way of shifting targets [I]and[/I] concentration then topped off by granting a free save to end every round to targets that are only affected because they failed the initial save to ignore. Unfortunately it is as much of a mess to fix because it would take both rewriting a huge percentage of the spells and doing testing/sanity checking to avoid true LFQW/punpun type "oops". The problem is entirely wotc's deliberate creation & there is no easy solution one could charitably say was [I]just[/I] "significant houserules" [*][B]J [/B]I think this is directed at another poster & have no idea what your asking about if not. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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