Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Cantrips, a Curious Thing
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9051939" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>I want to preface this by saying this is not a call to change how cantrips and spells work; I presume that the current system exists for reasons related to mechanical balance. So please, no comments like "lol wut, do you want to make casters stronker?", or "I hate at-will cantrips!" (we're assuming that's just how things are for the purposes of this discussion). That's not the point, really. What I'm curious about is the narrative; D&D's spellcasting systems all evolved from an interpretation of what's going on in Jack Vance's Dying Earth novels (or, as I'm more familiar with, Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber)- the Wizard takes time to "pre-cast" a spell in advance, to be released at a later time by leaving a few threads of magic unwoven (or something to that effect).</p><p></p><p>You can see this in play with Rituals, which can be used with no "cost" in spell slots, but take a lot of time to use. But Cantrips exist in this funny space, where they can do a lot for a very minimal cost, even if they eventually outperform low-level spells!</p><p></p><p>Most spellcasting classes can use Cantrips. Small bits of magic that can be used over and over again; mechanically, there's no real problem with this- it gives spellcasters something to do each turn, and lets them conserve spell slots.</p><p></p><p>However, something strange is definitely going on, because some of the Cantrips of higher level spellcasters get stronger over time, while the power of a spell slot doesn't change. Now, I'm just going to come out and say I don't think Cantrips are really infinite in universe; that's simply a game mechanic not wanting to actually place a limit on them. I'm just assuming that Cantrips can be used "an arbitrarily large amount of times" in universe.</p><p></p><p>But even that's a little strange. Consider: Fire Bolt is a ranged spell attack that deals 1d10 fire damage at level 1. At level 5 it becomes 2d10, at level 11 3d10, and level 17, 4d10.</p><p></p><p>Ice Knife is a 1st level ranged spell attack that deals 1d10 piercing damage, then explodes, causing the target and everyone within 5' to make a Dex save or take 2d6 cold. It never gets better than this, not even at levels 5, 11, and 17; instead, you'd have to use a higher level spell slot...but all that does is increase the secondary damage by 1d6. The initial d10 piercing never gets better.</p><p></p><p>What's going on, do you suppose, in-universe, that allows someone to wield a cantrip more efficiently and still maintain an arbitrary amount of uses per diem, but does not allow you to wield a spell more efficiently without using more and more of your allotment of magic energy? Even a Wizard who has attained Spell Mastery and could use Ice Knife at will like a cantrip, still only ever gains the minimum effect!</p><p></p><p>The only class that automatically scales spells is the Warlock, but even they are limited to X casts per day, as they must rest an hour to recover their slots.</p><p></p><p>So what is going on with Cantrips that causes them to function so differently from other spells? Why isn't there a dedicated Cantrip caster, who gets a large number of Cantrips and focuses on empowering them, not really caring about "spell slots" (the Warlock can be built in this fashion, but even they can mess around with leveled spells, not to mention Rituals)? You'd think there'd be some kind of Fighter or Rogue archetype called the "Cantrip Master" or something.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9051939, member: 6877472"] I want to preface this by saying this is not a call to change how cantrips and spells work; I presume that the current system exists for reasons related to mechanical balance. So please, no comments like "lol wut, do you want to make casters stronker?", or "I hate at-will cantrips!" (we're assuming that's just how things are for the purposes of this discussion). That's not the point, really. What I'm curious about is the narrative; D&D's spellcasting systems all evolved from an interpretation of what's going on in Jack Vance's Dying Earth novels (or, as I'm more familiar with, Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber)- the Wizard takes time to "pre-cast" a spell in advance, to be released at a later time by leaving a few threads of magic unwoven (or something to that effect). You can see this in play with Rituals, which can be used with no "cost" in spell slots, but take a lot of time to use. But Cantrips exist in this funny space, where they can do a lot for a very minimal cost, even if they eventually outperform low-level spells! Most spellcasting classes can use Cantrips. Small bits of magic that can be used over and over again; mechanically, there's no real problem with this- it gives spellcasters something to do each turn, and lets them conserve spell slots. However, something strange is definitely going on, because some of the Cantrips of higher level spellcasters get stronger over time, while the power of a spell slot doesn't change. Now, I'm just going to come out and say I don't think Cantrips are really infinite in universe; that's simply a game mechanic not wanting to actually place a limit on them. I'm just assuming that Cantrips can be used "an arbitrarily large amount of times" in universe. But even that's a little strange. Consider: Fire Bolt is a ranged spell attack that deals 1d10 fire damage at level 1. At level 5 it becomes 2d10, at level 11 3d10, and level 17, 4d10. Ice Knife is a 1st level ranged spell attack that deals 1d10 piercing damage, then explodes, causing the target and everyone within 5' to make a Dex save or take 2d6 cold. It never gets better than this, not even at levels 5, 11, and 17; instead, you'd have to use a higher level spell slot...but all that does is increase the secondary damage by 1d6. The initial d10 piercing never gets better. What's going on, do you suppose, in-universe, that allows someone to wield a cantrip more efficiently and still maintain an arbitrary amount of uses per diem, but does not allow you to wield a spell more efficiently without using more and more of your allotment of magic energy? Even a Wizard who has attained Spell Mastery and could use Ice Knife at will like a cantrip, still only ever gains the minimum effect! The only class that automatically scales spells is the Warlock, but even they are limited to X casts per day, as they must rest an hour to recover their slots. So what is going on with Cantrips that causes them to function so differently from other spells? Why isn't there a dedicated Cantrip caster, who gets a large number of Cantrips and focuses on empowering them, not really caring about "spell slots" (the Warlock can be built in this fashion, but even they can mess around with leveled spells, not to mention Rituals)? You'd think there'd be some kind of Fighter or Rogue archetype called the "Cantrip Master" or something. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Cantrips, a Curious Thing
Top